I Know, Let’s All Pretend That Behaviour Doesn’t Matter
Lifted from the comments, a difference of opinion:
This is the easiest bullet to bite: yes, I value my stuff more than I value the life of a thief I’ve never even met. https://t.co/h4QVDNz2xX
— wanye (@wanyeburkett) November 7, 2023
As I posted in reply,
A slightly different perspective:
If an example of the aforementioned schtick is needed, this comes to mind:
At which point, I think one has to ask an obvious question. In the case of the mugger, survived to do what? Continue mugging women, presumably. Which, in turn, raises the question of exactly how many assaults and armed muggings, or worse, a mugger’s survival is worth.
Answers on a postcard, please.
In the archives, you’ll find many variations on this theme. As when we were told – by Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender – that a dislike of having your home invaded by feral, malevolent predators, and having the lives of your family put in mortal danger, “comes from a place of privilege.”
Or, this rather nightmarish example of antisocial liveliness:
What would you do in this case?
— The Post Millennial (@TPostMillennial) September 4, 2023
Following which, I added:
If, for instance, someone with a big, shiny knife is breaking into your home in the middle of the night, you should not, ideally, be distracted by any great concern for whether or not your attempt at self-defence results in them getting injured or ceasing to be. Not least because their ceasing-to-be would be a very good thing. A gift to the world.
Among our betters, however, all manner of contortions can be performed:
Though perhaps these are skills only available to more elevated beings, including, obviously, Guardian columnists.
Update, via the comments:
Regarding Mr Zack Ford, mentioned above, Jacob adds,
Mr Ford’s moral calculus is a little bizarre. As is the way in which his displays of progressive hand-wringing were hastily deleted – once it became apparent that his practised moral contrivance had reached a wider, less pretentious audience. Just as it was hard to miss the contrast between Mr Ford’s gushing pieties, aired from afar, and the views of local residents and witnesses, who, needless to say, were somewhat less accommodating.
And as noted in the original thread, I’m tempted to wonder if Mr Ford’s mugger-friendly philosophy extends to other violent crimes against women.
At which point, EmC adds,
Well, in the case of Mr Ford, our self-styled champion of “social justice,” it’s not clear what the threshold of permissible resistance would be – assuming he thinks there is one.
I mean, if the wellbeing of habitual predators is apparently of such importance – at least equal to that of their numerous victims – then what kind of offence would be sufficiently egregious to justify resistance, thereby risking harm to them? Can our predator snatch your dog, your bag, your wedding ring? Or can he, being so important, press further – say, by violating your home in the night, as you and your children sleep? What particular nightmare would be a step too far? Alas, like so many of his peers, Mr Ford doesn’t say.
Some of those peers, like Mr Clive Stafford Smith, mentioned here, insist that the buzz of burglars should not be harshed with prison, especially if the burglar is “a young black person.” Indeed, he regards objections to being burgled as trivial, plebeian, and unsophisticated, while disdaining the victims’ distress and their expectations of justice as, and I quote, “idiotic attitudes.” So I’m guessing any physical opposition would, in his mind, be out of the question. Presumably, we should help the burglars carry away our possessions, lest they fatigue themselves.
Personally, I think such things are probably best nipped in the bud. Saves a lot of degradation and misery for the law-abiding.
Update 2:
Regarding Mr Clive Stafford Smith and his self-satisfied disdain for victims of burglary, ccscientist adds,
It seems to me that any attempt at burglary should be treated as a mortal danger. If someone is willing to violate your home – and violate a fundamental moral boundary – what other moral boundaries will they cross? And given, say, two or three seconds to think about it, how can you possibly know which ones they won’t cross?
To assume that a burglar armed with a crowbar is anything other than an existential threat seems foolish in the extreme.
It’s also worth noting that – contra Mr Stafford Smith – the stuff being stolen is not just stuff. It’s the hours, weeks, or months of your life that were spent working in order to pay for the stolen objects, and of course the time and effort that may now be needed to replace them – assuming that whatever was taken can be replaced.
And if someone you care about – say, an elderly relative or neighbour – has ever been a victim of burglary, they’ll probably tell you that the emotional and psychological effects, the sense of vulnerability and degradation, are far from trivial. In fact, you probably won’t need to be told this, because it will be obvious from how they subsequently behave, and how distressing that is to see.
At which point, the fashionable affectations of Mr Clive Stafford Smith – for whom burglary is a crime “that has no impact on you at all,” that nobody should care about, and which should effectively go unpunished – may seem even more perverse. Something close to grotesque.
Behold our betters. See how they glitter.
Goodness, I see three buttons. I wonder what they do.
Still can’t believe that clown is real.
Mr Ford’s moral calculus was a little bizarre. As was the way in which his displays of progressive piety were hastily deleted – once it became apparent that his practised moral contrivance had reached a wider, less pretentious audience. Just as it was hard to miss the contrast between Mr Ford’s gushing pieties, aired from afar, and the views of local residents and witnesses, who, needless to say, were somewhat less accommodating.
And as noted in the original thread, I’m tempted to wonder if Mr Ford’s mugger-friendly philosophy extends to other violent crimes against women.
And they think they’re the good guys.
Well, in the case of Mr Ford, our self-styled champion of “social justice,” it’s not clear what the threshold of permissible resistance would be – assuming he thinks there is one.
I mean, if the wellbeing of habitual predators is apparently of such importance – at least equal to that of their numerous victims – then what kind of offence would be sufficiently egregious to justify resistance, thereby risking harm to them? Can our predator snatch your dog, your bag, your wedding ring? Or can he, being so important, press further – say, by violating your home in the night, as you and your children sleep? What particular nightmare would be a step too far? Alas, like so many of his peers, Mr Ford doesn’t say.
Some, like Mr Clive Stafford Smith, mentioned here, insist that the buzz of burglars should not be harshed with prison, especially if the burglar is a “young black person.” Indeed, he regards objections to being burgled as trivial, plebeian, and unsophisticated, while disdaining the victims’ expectations of lawfulness and justice as, and I quote, “idiotic attitudes.” So I’m guessing any physical opposition would, in his mind, be out of the question. Presumably, we should help the burglars carry away our possessions, lest they fatigue themselves.
Personally, I think such things are probably best nipped in the bud. Saves a lot of degradation and misery for the law-abiding.
[ Post updated. ]
When someone is breaking into your house, you cannot know their intentions. Such criminals are often sociopaths, drunk, on meth etc. They cannot be guaranteed to merely want some of your stuff. They may shoot you just for fun, or rape your wife.
As to a small store owner–this is how he feeds his family. Shoplifting threatens his world. He is not so rich that “it is just stuff”. As to big companies, they are capable of closing a store if too much crime afflicts it, and they do (talking to you SF). This puts lots of people out of work, which is not a joke.
It rarely is “just stuff.” It’s the hours, weeks, or months of one’s life that were required to buy whatever the “stuff” is, and of course the time and effort that may now be needed to replace it – assuming that whatever was taken can be replaced. As Richard Cranium put it in an earlier thread, it’s a non-refundable portion of your lifespan. To say nothing of the emotional and psychological effects, the sense of vulnerability and violation.
If someone you care about – say, an elderly relative – has ever been a victim of burglary, for instance, they’ll probably tell you that the latter is far from trivial. In fact, you probably won’t need telling because it will be obvious from how they subsequently behave, and how distressing that is to see.
And with that scenario in mind, do read the Guardian‘s fawning profile of Mr Clive Stafford Smith.
Any attempt at home invasion should be treated as a mortal danger. If someone is willing to violate your home – and violate a very significant moral boundary – what other moral boundaries will they cross? And given, say, two or three seconds to think about it, how can you possibly know which ones they won’t cross?
To assume that a burglar armed with a crowbar is anything other than an existential threat seems foolish in the extreme.
Of course they do. Why would they think otherwise? It’s a serious question. The vast majority of inputs they receive validate their positions. Their celebrities, their school teachers, their musicians, their college professors, the books they read, the movies they attend, the sports stars that they worship, even those who attend a church or other religious service get their positions validated. It doesn’t matter the subject, the issue, or these days even the court case before them, the proper answer to anything approaching a dilemma is the answer to the left. Why would they think otherwise?
I refer you to my comment regarding coyotes and bears on the previous post. Killing literal animals for their predatory behavior over humans and pets is for the most part off the table, even amongst conservatives…”conservatives”. Of course because that’s what “conservatism” means. Of course, of course. Surely killing humans committing similar acts would be even more wrong.
Any attempt at home invasion should be treated as a mortal danger
In my university course on Roman Law the professor drew attention to an interesting legal principle. Given the size and open plan of Roman villas and houses, it was possible and likely that you’d have strangers coming and going all the time – clients, slaves delivering things, and so on. If you were to find a stranger in your home during the day, you could not take violent action against him without being subject to legal action yourself. He might be there for an entirely legitimate purpose.
At night, however, any stranger found in your home could be killed out of hand with no consequences whatsoever. Night implied secrecy; secrecy implied evil intent; regardless of his reason for being there, the trespasser’s life was forfeit at the homeowner’s discretion.
It bothers me that we’ve sunk so low that jurisdictions with Castle Laws are the isolated exception.
Justice consists of meteing out what is fair and proportionate. If an individual has been harmed by a thief then justice requires that the thief experience proportional harm. Society dispenses the justice on behalf of all of the individuals harmed. If we presume that only one in 50 thiefs are actually caught, prosecuted, and found guilty then it is reasonable that for every crime where a thief is meted out punishment, that punishment is 50 times worse than the harm done by the thief.
Let’s say a thief steals $5000. The thief must be punished proportionately, and this amounts to $250,000. Obviously the thief has no assets, and so they are imprisoned. The purpose of the imprisonment is to take from them an amount of labour equivalent to $250,000. Let us say that is $10 / hr for such an unskilled person. That is therefore 25,000 hours, or about 12 years if he might have been able to sell 2,080 hours per year.
You may quibble with a specific factor, but this reasoning is why punishments are worse than the harm inflicted. If we managed to catch and address each and every case where harm is done then the punishments may be closer to the harm. Where catching criminals is rarer then the punishments go up.
This is also why attempted theft is punished the same as actual theft. We are presuming that there are other thefts and that this attempted theft is just one of the ones we managed to catch.
It is perfectly reasonable to expect to go to jail for a few years for attempting to steal a $1000 dog.
If a thief inflcts fear on a victim then justice demands we inflict fear on the thief. And that fear must be 50 times worse than that inflicted. Punishments for robbery are worse than punishments for burglary for this exact reason.
Violent crimes such as armed robbery and rape have similar reasoning. If a robber was willing to threaten harm (up to and including death) in order steal something or force someone to do an action, and more armed robberies and rapes are committed than prosecuted, the punishment must be proportionate. Also, attempts must be punished the same as an actual event.
Not all people experience the same trauma from a violent event but we can say that most would experience significant after-effects that debilitate them for months or years. Therefore the ciminal must be punished 50 x worse than this.
Life imprisonment for murder or attempted murder is generally considered reasonable. And armed robbery is one split second hesitation away from a murder.
A credible threat to kill someone if they don’t hand over their dog would seem consistent with a very long prison sentence. Perhaps not life imprisonment but something very close.
Ask her if a slave shouldn’t have the right to kill his enslaver to get freedom.
I find your ideas compelling and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Agree in general with much of what you said but not this. The purpose of imprisonment is threefold. 1) Keep that person contained/confined in such a way as to keep them from doing further harm to society 2) maybe…possibly give them some time to sit and consider whether what they did was worth pissing away the time spent in prison and 3) somewhat similar to #1, push any further criminal activity said person might commit further into the future where their energy and abilities are likely to be more limited. They “payback” thing is fantasy. It might serve as a rule of thumb but it still distracts from these more important three items. I also believe that were #2 enhanced such that the perps were required to spend time in a classroom or such dwelling on how they pissed their sentence time away we could see some minor improvements once they get out. Depending on the crime.
My nipping preferences start with .45.
And yes, I have had to defend my property with violence. I also note that during said event, I paid little (as in not one bit) attention to the proportionality of my efforts…
Good luck with that. I simply Sgt.-Carter marched an AT&T salesman off my front porch when he refused to leave and got scolded by the police for doing so. Gotta call po-po for EVERYTHING. Of course I do say BS to that but…
Lying back & thinking of England probably crosses that threshold.
Say you imprison someone for 12 years to satisfy a $250,000 ‘debt’. What about the costs of imprisonment? Are they added to the sentence? Say the cost of imprisonment is $60,000 per annum – by the end of the 12 year sentence, the ‘debt’ has increased by $720,000. Are 35 years to be added on to the 12 year sentence? And what then to do about the additional ‘debt’ of $2,100,000?
The concept of a ‘debt’ incurred by malefactors to society, especially in this dull and literalist time, leads to green-eyeshade folly.
The purpose of imprisonment is to imprison the perpetrator, both to prevent them from continuing their activities and to punish them for pursuing same. If some recompense can be extracted from them during this time, all well and good. But it’s not the primary purpose.
Why can’t the victim tell the cops that xe identified as Black Trans Genderqueer during the crime, causing the universe to magically snap back to 1950’s morality?
PETA must surely approve.
Meanwhile at the Institute of Physics, they have a new DIE rep.
Everything is a moral inversion with these people.
No one has any moral agency in their world, except the objects of their bigotries. No one is ever to blame for their own assholery.
The day can’t come soon enough when the world decides to stop treating these cretins with the kindness and tolerance we expect of ourselves, and we instead treat them like the way they deserve to be treated – like the jackals they are.
[ Post updated again. ]
Well, it’s curious how Mr Stafford Smith spends much more time chiding the victims of burglary, and the law-aiding generally, than he does the creatures who actually break into strangers’ homes and steal their belongings, and who do this over and over again.
The perpetrators, the aggressors, are offered endless excuses for their behaviour. The victims, however, are disdained as unsophisticated and low-status, with “idiotic attitudes.” Attitudes that Guardian readers should by implication find amusing and contemptible. Specifically, the belief that burglary is still in fact a crime and should still result in punishment, even when the burglar is “a young black person.”
In the interview, both Mr Stafford Smith and Ms Aitkenhead insist that being burgled has “zero” emotional impact and no real material repercussions – and is therefore trivial and unworthy of serious punishment. Which is much easier to claim if, like Stafford Smith, you’re from a very comfortable background of upscale boarding schools, costing a mere £12,000 a term.
Neither of our moral titans pauses to consider the impact of burglary, even repeatedly burglary, on someone who is, say, elderly and isolated, and perhaps uninsured, and who has no means of replacing whatever possessions were stolen or destroyed.
Instead, Mr Stafford Smith goes on to boast that he dislikes Conservative voters much more than muggers and carjackers, and Ms Aitkenhead claps along approvingly. The self-admiring duo casually insult the victims of crime as if doing so were a credential, proof of their elevation.
This is who they are.
The day can’t come soon enough when the world decides to stop treating these cretins with the kindness and tolerance we expect of ourselves…
Extreme, but it was only a matter of time.
Speaking of victims, this one has been [gasp] “deadnamed” in court.
Be sure to check The Rest Of The Story.
re; “What would I do?”
Squeeze the trigger – several times, then call 911.
Well, as noted in an earlier thread,
A process that, I’d suggest, is well underway.