How Dare You Not Pretend
In the comments, Mr Muldoon steers us to the latest mental rumblings of Ms Laurie Penny:
Ms Penny is, I think, referring to fellow feminist Julie Bindel, whose review of Laurie’s latest book is not entirely positive, and who chose not to refer to its author as a suddenly ungendered being. But the broader claim is perhaps worth exploring.
I can’t say that my own views on modish pronoun stipulation make me feel “cool and edgy.” If anything, they seem fairly self-evident and unremarkable, not the stuff of obvious scandal or sudden intakes of breath. And I doubt that anyone here is likely to feel “threatened… by the ideas of a more progressive generation.” Though Ms Penny’s tendency to self-flatter – her inevitable trajectory – does catch the eye.
Regarding rudeness, I’m generally polite by default, at least in person, and don’t go out of my way to needlessly put a kink in someone else’s day. I’ve had perfectly civil chats with people who regard themselves as transgender or gender-non-conforming or whatever. Nobody got upset. But what is often being asked – or demanded – is not a small thing, not in its implications.
Taken broadly, we are being asked to affirm, wholesale, a bundle of phenomena that includes not only actual gender dysphoria, whether the result of developmental anomalies or childhood molestation, but also autogynephilia, serious personality disorders, adolescent pretension, and assorted exhibitionist and unsavoury compulsions. The expectation seems to be that we should take these different phenomena, with very different moral connotations, as being one and the same thing, and then defer to them, habitually and uncritically. Which is asking rather more than can readily be agreed to.
We’ve previously noted the ways in which the activism of pronoun stipulators differs from that of other groups with which they are often equated. Someone being gay, for instance, doesn’t generally entail an expectation that the rest of us should pretend that the physical reality we can see is somehow not the case. And unsurprisingly, people may object to being told that they should disregard the obvious and become dishonest on demand, thereby leaving themselves open to any prankster, or bedlamite, or sadistic opportunist in search of leverage.
Some insist that not indulging modish pronouns, including animal pronouns and clown pronouns, and pronouns that can change randomly, several times a day – and being reluctant to indulge any other attendant psychodrama – is a violation of human rights and a basis for severe legal consequences. One might think that coercively eroding the probity of other people, demanding that they lie, and even hallucinate, is a pretty bad thing too. At best, a recipe for grim farce. But there we are.
Laurie’s own adventures in competitive self-definition have dazzled us before and may reward a second visit.
This is one of those situations, as often seen here, that tells you so much about the writer. Note that she pretends that using normal pronouns is ‘cool and edgy’ (good persuasion actually, thinking past the sale, assuming that *not* using normal pronouns is normal). This is part of the retardation you see so much with ‘progressives’ – perpetual adolescence. Children want to seem ‘cool and edgy’. If that’s still your yardstick as you saunter through middle-age, you’re seeming desperate and you’re in ‘hello fellow kids, I’m so down with all the hip cats’ territory.
Also, pretending that you squares are threatened by the radicals. Bless. Very much ‘Ooh, I’ve juxtaposed poo and JC. Again. Cower in terror!’
a suddenly ungendered being
Lol. That.
Lol. That.
Well, it’s curious how Laurie’s them-ness, as it were – her displeasure at being considered female, which she is – came on quite suddenly, late in life, and for no obvious reason, beyond shifting fashion and the neurotic pretensions of her niche peer group.
As noted in the post linked above,
That does seem to be the level on which it operates. Making Laurie’s use of the word childish seem unwittingly ironic.
It’s always struck me as odd, the narcissism in seizing the ownership of pronouns.
They’re not your pronouns. The words I use to describe you when you’re not around belong, if they belong to any person, to me, not to you. Fucking egomaniac.
It’s like they’ve heard the term social construct and automatically assumed it means they can make them up as they go along. The clue’s in the name, you fucking wackos – you don’t get to construct them – society constructs them. About you.
it’s childish, it’s tiresome, it’s anti-intellectual
Lefties project.
Lefties project.
Well, Laurie is pretty much a walking shorthand for almost every woke affectation and mental contortion. And her tutting about rudeness rings a little hollow, all things considered.
People really should watch more ’60s beach/surfer movies. If they did, they might realize just how fast linguistic fads go from au current to passé. The patois in those films was frequently out of date by the time kids shelled out their 25 cents for a Saturday matinee. Do you feel me, Dad-dad-daddio?
Lefties project.
Indeed, that is the nut of it, besides, it is his/her/its “preferred pronoun”, not “legally mandated pronoun”, and it is my preference not to play along with someone else’s charade.
it’s childish
I’m not taking that from the little girl who was pretending to be a cyborg not so long ago.
Maynard- when I taught high school I used to tell the kids that if I was familiar with a slang term it meant that none of them were using it anymore!
in which she feels a need to ‘come out’ to the same group of Twitter followers, over and over again,
Hmm. I do wonder why that is? *Reads further*
some new basis for applause.
And there it is. Trained seals again.
She’s always been a bad Penny.
Didn’t Penny also say not too long ago, when she came out with the they, that’s she’s also a she, but she gets to decide when and who can use it? Or some such. Her feminist side was balking at being a they – think she said she’d “earned” the she – but being a they was so much more trendy and “with it”, and she’s nothing if not a trend-follower. But it begs the question – if she can’t make up her own mind, why does she get to scold people for using the “wrong” pronouns? Why do any of these people? How did so few gain so much power over so many?
How did so few gain so much power over so many?
The internet.
What Penny is asking is impossible. There are 7 billion people in the world. Even in a university or office there are hundreds that you come in contact with. You do not know their names, if they are married or have kids, and certainly not their pronouns. But we have seen numerous posts here where the pronoun squad get mad about a waiter/waitress who can’t guess correctly. How could they? And when there are dozens of pronouns and these clowns even use them wrong, it is impossible squared. This is all assuming you even want to play the game.
The sad reality is that all of us are insignificant in the world. No one notices us at the store or cares how we are doing except maybe friends and family. It is childish to want everyone to notice you and praise you. Praise has to be earned but clowns have rarely done anything to deserve praise. Confusing kids and coloring your hair pink are not praiseworthy actions.
I don’t know, some of these Hitler Yoofs make me feel a bit threatened.
Question: In what other countries and in what languages is this “my pronouns” thing happening?
Is “misgendering” a faux-pas in France, Germany, Russia, Sudan, Botswana, China…?
“…can’t guess correctly. How could they?…”
The new etiquette is to politely inquire of every person you converse with. “Hi. Nice to meet you. My pronouns are “he/him”, what are yours?” If you don’t ask, or if you don’t have an answer when asked, you identify yourself as a Backwards Ignoramus, possibly an Angry Racist or worse.
But we have seen numerous posts here where the pronoun squad get mad about a waiter/waitress who can’t guess correctly. How could they?
The point is for someone to get it wrong.
But we have seen numerous posts here where the pronoun squad get mad about a waiter/waitress who can’t guess correctly.
We have indeed:
For instance.
But it begs the question – if she can’t make up her own mind, why does she get to scold people for using the “wrong” pronouns? Why do any of these people? How did so few gain so much power over so many?
Because we let them. Bullies will bully until their noses are bloodied. When one side lacks the confidence and/or fortitude to stand up to them or sits around waiting for Someone Else to suffer their slings and arrows but Someone Else has had enough, what’s to stop them?
So here’s another thing in this stupid pronoun game that I seem to have missed and have yet to see anyone ask…not that I care but how does this pronoun crap in regard to the made up crap like ‘clownself’ and such affect other gendered terms like ‘son’, ‘daughter’, ‘niece’, ‘nephew’, ‘mother’, ‘King of Siam’, etc. etc. etc.?
“Hi. Nice to meet you.
My pronouns are “he/him”, what are yours?”Do you have any mental illness(es) or personality disorders?”Do checkout staff and waitresses really have the time and wherewithal to fathom and indulge every single customer’s psychological quirks in advance of any interaction, even a routine greeting?
Possibly more importantly on the opposite economic, thus potential pushback end, has anyone here ever encountered a waiter or waitress or clerk or person of any similar position who has an economic interest in the money expected to come out of your pocket make such pronoun demands? If so, curious what happened next.
WTP: they seek to abolish all family related terms like son, daughter uncle. There was a recent item about a woman with a beard who had a kid and was outraged to be called the “mother” of the baby. Familial terms express special relationships but nothing could be more special than green hair and “clownself” so such competing terms must be banished.
Well yes, I have heard the ‘birthing person’ thing. But ‘niece’? ‘Nephew’? Certainly ‘birthing capable descendant of birthing person’s sibling’ simply cannot fly if said person is clown-able. Otherwise we could acceptably call ‘clownself’ ‘birthing person self’ or whatever
Ah, but re-reading that…so nieces and nephews and stuff are just ‘people over there’ or something. So ‘it’ should be similarly acceptable. It’s obviously all so bloody stupid and well beyond what even marxists or Nazis would push for.
Still looking for first hand accounts of these pronouns in the bush, so to speak.
Still looking for first hand accounts of these pronouns in the bush, so to speak.
It’s tough since, by nature of the people who find this blog, we’ll tend not to hang around such types. But also I suspect it’s much like all the supposedly systemic and pervasive racism in the US – constantly commented upon by middle- and upper-class whites but seldom actually seen.
pronouns in the bush
Band name.
Julie Bindel writes a good take down of the Penny, but giving gravitas to these twats and treating their writing seriously perpetuates the problem.
David provides a more appropriate forum for the discussion of such “ideas.”
Band name.
Sure thing. But what kind of band? I’m imagining first album of jazz, second of country, third hip-hop, next bee-bop. Watch, someone will try this by swapping out completely different styled musicians under the same band name. And will I get a penny in residuals? Nooo. Not even a credit note.
It’s tough since, by nature of the people who find this blog, we’ll tend not to hang around such types.
But this. Yes, I get it. But like Daniel Ream’s flippant comment about dress standards and such, a bit of a cop-out. If these people are really out there, and I don’t doubt that they are, until/unless they get some pushback, significant pushback, you will find yourself presented with such a situation. It’s not going to go away by magic. The question is/remains what will/did one do about it?
The question is/remains what will/did one do about it?
My wife was on a work call with a 3rd party last week. The rep from the 3rd party was Romanian and used an “ok” sign emoji to denote a bullet point achieved. My wife’s manager proceeded to lecture him about the fact that white supremacists used the symbol and therefore it was offensive etc, and the very confused Romanian apologized and removed it. My wife was also blindsided by the whole affair, so stayed silent and incredulous through the whole clownshow.
I simply nodded my head when hearing the story, since I spend far too much time diving into clown world’s absurdities, and suggested she should have said, “None of us are disgusting white supremacists here, so to hell with them.” She admitted that would’ve thrown her manager for a loop, but (a) wasn’t aware of this particular absurdity so was too confused to respond, and (b) didn’t want to upset her manager, inviting questions about vaccine status and marking her as a badthinker.
I forget that few of us are equipped to deal with this mind cancer, and thus their power grows unabated.
Regarding “pronames” or “proper personal pronouns” – because that’s essentially what they are – one limitation for the “wokistas” who insist on them is that they’re always in the third person of course.
We talk to each other in the second person (“How are you today”); we talk about each other in the third person (“How is she today?”). If you make it far too cumbersome for me to talk about you in the third person, the solution is patently simple: I’m not going to.
So there’s another problem for those who insist on their boutique “pronames”: they’re effectively “self-marginalizing”!
To a degree, yes. Here in the buckle on the Bible Belt, there’s a trendy restaurant that my sister and her husband like because they’re (*sigh*) vegan. Their favorite waiter has a badge that he wears which says “They/Them”.
We ignore it when we talk about him, and he says nothing offensive.
I may tolerate your delusions. It’s a bit much to expect me to participate in them.
Still looking for first hand accounts of these pronouns in the bush, so to speak.
I didn’t go out to eat much before the wuhan flu and I get out even less after (so many rules, not worth my time and limited $$), so no waiter/waitress/waitron pronoun interactions, and I just go to the self checkout when I do the weekly shop now (partly because the mask/signage/partitions make dealing with the cashier a miserable experience). Employees of various public-serving establishments in this city tend to have the poisonous hair colors and extensive tattooing, but right now masking seems to be a bigger concern than pronouns. Even my work is in a clownworld-rich environment, but since I don’t teach and students on my end of campus tend to be from foreign countries where pronouns aren’t their biggest concern, I’ve managed to avoid most of the insanity, except when getting an email from HR or the U prez, and they put pronouns in their email signature.
Then my boss wanted me to collaborate with someone from the English Dept. who just got a grant and needs some help getting data that I am familiar with. Of course face to face meetings are verboten and I get an email: “Female Name (she/elle/ella) wants to invite you to a Zoom meeting!”. I’m now terrified – am I going to have to announce pronouns in the meeting? Am I going to be fired if I politely decline? As it turns out, unserious people act unseriously, and I dutifully logged into the Zoom meeting that the she the host never bothered to log into. Never got an email saying she had to cancel, nothing. Needless to say I was relieved.
Further to WTP’s question – I think this pronoun stuff is most prominent online, in social media. If it’s in real life, it’s mainly in things like email signatures and interoffice chat/message board profiles, etc. And even from various videos linked on Twitter and such, it seems to me the customer is the one banging on about pronouns, not the waiter/waitress/cashier/desk clerk. One exception to this is teachers, but they also have much better job security and their customer base is captive.
Julie Bindel, whose review of Laurie’s latest book is not entirely positive, …
Bindel’s review provides the following extract from Penny’s latest:
Something has broken. Something is breaking still. Not like a glass breaks or like a heart breaks, but like the shell of an egg breaks – inexorably, and from the inside. Something wet and angry is fighting its way out of the dark, and it has claws.
If you think that’s anus-tuggingly awful, you would of course be absolutely right.
However, this is her writing from a decade ago, when she was about 25:
We tried terribly hard to save each other, in the way that young people do, sharing out whatever meager bits of work and welfare we could get our hands on, nursing one another ineffectually through the shock of walking out of school and college into a world that didn’t want us. It took us two years to realize that we couldn’t save one another, not one by one. We had to do it together, or not at all, all of us, the lost boys and girls of the credit crunch with no jobs, no prospects, no safe places to live, none of the things we played the game for all our young lives.
So 10 years on, at 35, and despite the fact that she has been writing – and getting published – almost continuously during all that time, there’s not one lick of evidence that her writing has improved in any way whatsoever.
I mean, you’d think there’d have been at least some change, however small, wouldn’t you?
Yet it still reads like the ramblings of an overwrought teenage diary.
… sharing out whatever meager bits of work and welfare we could get our hands on, nursing one another ineffectually through the shock of walking out of school and college into a world that didn’t want us.
She went to fucking Oxford for fuck‘s sake.
Oops!
Shit.
Someone pass me the cone of shame, will you?
“She went to fucking Oxford for fuck’s sake.”
Didn’t her parents have money?
[ Wipes sweat from forehead. ]
As has been warned previously, Preview did not show the italics getting fixed. What’s more, that was also true after I hit “Post”. Only refreshing the screen showed the italics as fixed.
“…they also have much better job security and their
customer base isvictims are captive.”
Well, in the case of Laurie Penny at least, she would probably be happy if we all ended up using “Comrade” as the future form of address.
Shit.
[ Reaches under bar for revolver. ]
[ Wipes sweat from forehead. ]
[ Puts revolver back in ivory box. ]
Not today, Bessie. Not today.
Karl just stole my line. But yes, spot-on. Claiming “your” pronouns is simply pig-ignorance. This is what happens after 50 years of pretending that you don’t need to teach grammar.
My wife’s manager proceeded to lecture him
Um, someone needs a private talk with that manager’s boss because a very public lecture of a (client/partner/employee) of this nature is rarely about the issue. That “manager” has power issues. And it will, sooner or later, poison staff relations.
That’s just one of the endless issues with the Woke. They are so sure of their own righteousness, public humiliation of any transgressor is the high point of their day.
If someone inadvertently makes an inappropriate statement or gesture, a real manager will take it up with them in private later.
I probably wouldn’t have confronted the manager at that moment but I’d sure drop a dime on him/her. (been there, done that)
Ms. Penny’s worst fear is that we – society – remove her “reason” for bitching.
We could all call everyone by whatever pronoun they invented this week and nothing would improve. She would still be a midwit misfit. She will never be happy or well-adjusted or productive member of society. She doesn’t WANT that. She’s deathly afraid of that. Because it would force her to confront the fact that she’s incapable of producing the kind of value that affords her the lifestyle she grew up with.
In the end, this is nothing more – and nothing less – than her class anxiety wearing through. She was born posh and knows she can’t maintain it on the strength of her own talents….yet she values sneering at the lower classes more than anything else in her awful little world.
People may call me anything they want. I always quote the phrase: “A rose by any other name.” It can lead people to want to call me Rose, but as I say, I don’t care. The fact they are even talking to me is a sign I am both alive and worth the effort.
One final thought: was Ms Penny happy to be called ‘she’ and ‘her’ before there was all this kerfuffle over pronouns? If so, what changed? Other people’s opinions, perhaps? In which case, how sad this personoid is desperately keen to respond to any passing fad.
I probably wouldn’t have confronted the manager at that moment but I’d sure drop a dime on him/her. (been there, done that)
I say this without sarcasm – how well has that worked out for you, in the general case? I ask because I have worked for any number of toxic bosses over the decades, and in every single case they were toxic because they’d been allowed to be toxic and had been getting away with it forever. Bosses don’t generally suddenly become insecure power trippers overnight; it’s a fundamental personality trait that their bosses are aware of and don’t care (or are actively protecting).
The only case to the contrary I’ve ever seen was when a previous manager was fired for throwing things at one of his direct reports in a meeting, and the underling hastily promoted into the acting position was just as bad – but had no prior relationship with the ultimate boss. Even then, the underling was allowed to remain for two years until a departmental restructuring.