Thrashing Out The Issues
Time for an open thread, I think. But first,
Yes, let’s squeeze in another visit to the Guardian‘s Dining Across the Divide series, in which “strangers from across the divide” – albeit strangers with, very often, eerily similar opinions and a common choice of newspaper – “discuss the divisive issues of our time” and attempt to “bridge their political differences.” Should any significant differences actually materialise.
Yes, a series in which the entire breadth of conceivable political thought – as imagined by the Guardian‘s intellectual powerhouse Zoe Williams – is given an airing. And where left-leaning teachers, left-leaning writers and left-leaning university administrators discuss just how awful and stupid those non-leftwing people are, and whether Net Zero is super-imperative or just really, really important.
A series in which totally random Guardian readers – sorry, totally random members of the public – encounter “the opposite point of view,” while chewing on kale and butternut squash. Except that they both vote Green and are named Tamsin and Matilda.
This week, the clashing titans are BJ, a vegan and Lib Dem-voting writer, and Toby, a Labour-voting student now enthused by the Greens.
As you’d imagine, there’s much laughter and gaiety:
“I don’t see there’s any debate,” says Toby.
It’s all going terribly well, this debate thing.
Sadly, details of any clashing are for the most part left to the imagination. Filthy details are few and far between. Though BJ is slightly more concerned by exactness of terminology, and by antisemitism, of which both disapprove.
Says BJ,
I know. It’s just one blow after another.
To which, Toby replies,
At which point, I could just leave this here.
And this.
And this.
And this.
And this.
And this.
And this.
And this.
And…
Well, we’ll be here all day. And we must push on.
And so, during dessert:
Again, it’s all clash, clash, clash. Whether either participant is married or in some way entangled is, alas, not divulged.
And in a final, shocking twist:
Do take a moment to recover from all that spirited thrusting.
Previously in this bare-knuckle arena of Guardian debate:
Or, in effect, to themselves.
As commenter Rafi quipped following the above,
‘I think Trump is Hitler but in a slightly different way.’
THE DIVIDE!
Well, indeed. On poking through the series, of the three Conservative voters I could find, two were very soft Conservative, in the sense of actually voting for Labour, and the token Reform voter was oddly steeped in the Guardian tongue, showing great enthusiasm for “wealth taxes,” and disliking Mrs Thatcher.
This seems to be a common pattern – lefties and, well, almost lefties bonding over their dislike of Reform or Mr Trump. There’s very little substance to be had. It’s chiefly leftist boilerplate with some occasional and oddly flaccid pushback. Hardly representative of rebuttals one might offer. And not exactly capturing the tensions of our time.
Update, via the comments:
EmC quotes this,
And adds, not unfairly,
Quite.
Among the many miracles conjured into being by the Green Party in Brighton were numerous, long strikes interrupting basic services; residents having to wade through mountains of uncollected garbage for weeks on end; subsequent invasions by rats; plans to abolish car use in the city; and – despite the party’s ecological mania – the lowest recycling rates in the country.
Not to mention the endless manufactured congestion and astronomical parking fees, due to the council’s hostility to car ownership; the loss of tourism revenue as a direct result of these policies; countless failures to maintain simple infrastructure; and pavements overgrown with weeds to a degree that endangered the elderly and called to mind some dystopian science fiction.
For those unfamiliar with the farce in question, long-time Brighton resident Julie Burchill conveyed something of its scope and flavour:
And what every voter wants is a city councillor laughing at their frustration when trying to do formerly simple things. A frustration entirely the fault of said councillor’s own party and their bizarre policies. In this case, a policy based on a belief that when people go to the local dump – sorry, recycling centre – they do so by bicycle.
Readers are welcome to picture Brighton residents making three-mile journeys by pedal bike with old fridges and unwanted microwaves strapped to their backs.
Oh yes, I almost forgot. Open thread. Share ye links and bicker, baby.
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Schlieren photography, 1864
In a suburb of Boston that I am aware of, it is almost impossible to dispose of anything that will not fit in your single allowed trash can or single recycle can. Have a broke child’s bike? ahahahha too bad, you are stuck with it. So progressive.
How short sighted. Get the family in the car, drive out to the countryside, have lunch, fly a kite, go for a hike, then toss the bike off some backwater bridge in the middle of nowhere. Think of the economic stimulus!
No municipal recycling centers at all? And are there no commercial trash hauler services? Around here there are companies you can call to take away pretty much anything. And there are (mostly Mexican) guys who cruise the alleys in pickups looking for appliances and other things they can take to junk yards.
And there are (mostly Mexican) guys who cruise the alleys in pickups looking for appliances and other things they can take to junk yards.
Can attest. I once lived down closer to the border, in a duplex, in a neighborhood of duplexes, all rented by Mexican families or collections of Mexican men. I was the lone gringa on my street – it was an interesting place. When I lost my job and had to move, I put out at the curb things I could not fit into the moving cubes – old exercise machine, chairs, my lawnmower, etc – even though there would be no city large refuse pickup for months. My stuff didn’t even make it to the next morning – it was like ants at a picnic – old truck pulls up, people get out, stuff disappears into the truck. I was happy – saved me a littering ticket from the city.
Another well deserved dig at the corrupt UK justice system:
Where I live there are pickers who look for any scrap metal or something they can sell. The city is fine with it. They have recycling also but it operates at a loss so anything the pickers pick is a plus. For large items we just call and a different truck comes for those, like a couch. You can tell I am happy with my suburb.
Boston: calling an independent hauler to come take a bike is…pricey.
To think I see way too many snobs sneering how “declassee” and “lowbrow” it is to have military bands and flyovers and motocross? wrestling?
… when we could have this.
I took my 40 year old bike to a local dealer that acts as a collection point for a bicycle donation charity. They ended up giving me a little cash for the bike and all its accessories.
If it works, or is repairable, there is probably someone who would like to have it.
Craigslist.org for stuff you’re selling. Freecycle.org for stuff you’re giving away.
And people will cannibalize stuff that cannot be repaired for the useful parts.
Is “cannibalize” racist?
I think Hannibal Lecter is a white cannibal.
It will fit.
Every what, now?
Remember that for the Left, the issue is never the issue. The issue is the Revolution.
All those other “principles” are upheld only insofar as they further the Revolution.
Muslims want to destroy the West. So do Leftists.
QED
How to make soccer less boring.
It’s been quite funny in recent months, following Wanye’s posts on progressives as a group not understanding the motives and concerns of their political opponents. Their weirdly lacking a “theory of mind.” Almost every reply from progressives that I’ve seen is indignant, sneery, quite pissy, or immediately abusive. But generally empty of substance, beyond an obvious annoyance.
Or the kind of performative jowl-rattling seen, for instance, here.
So far as I can see, there’s been little attempt to address what he’s actually said, or the examples he’s provided, but quite a lot of name-calling and accusations of stupidity and/or malice. Say, claims of “sloppy thinking” without pointing out the specifics of the sloppiness. With many ascribing quite fanciful motivations to Wanye, and by extension to anyone else who suggests that this might be a phenomenon warranting some attention.
Related, on progressive pseudo-empathy.
People vary, of course, but it does seem to be a real phenomenon. A real pattern.
In the jowl-rattling video, above, it seems fairly clear that the gathered progressives have little interest in the actual history of slavery, which has somehow escaped them, despite their supposed interest in the subject. They are, however, clearly animated to express disapproval – censorious disapproval – at the actual history being mentioned at all.
And doubtless they would construe any airing of its particulars, and any factual correction of their own claims and assumptions, as somehow malicious, the act of a bad person, someone to hiss at. Hence the jowl-rattling. The idea that one’s motive in doing so might be something else – say, a preference for addressing the subject realistically, in light of actual history, doesn’t seem to register. Everyone seems much too busy disapproving or acting scandalised. Trying to make it stop.
And over the years I’ve recounted any number of personal interactions in which polite statements of fact – in reply to loud claims by other people – were met with indignation, something like incredulity, as if the reason for stating these corrections could only be malicious. Not, say, a preference for being accurate. As if the expectation that in arguments of this kind one should generally be restrained by the facts of the matter – what actually is and actually was – is somehow suspect.
Oh, and that Thing That Never Happens… well, you know.
I continue to maintain that it’s a status thing. Konstantin is being exceptionally gauche in mentioning a certain subject. They’re not interested in conversations that could lower their status in the eyes of their peers.
So if Konstantin says, “but the Emperor’s all nekkid and stuff,” that’s an unacceptable breach of etiquette. “Telling the TRVTH” isn’t even a consideration. Not valued at all.
Yes, that does seem very much part of it. And so you can find yourself having a conversation with someone, about a subject they brought up, only to discover you’re having the conversation for quite different reasons.
As I said here,
I’ve encountered that kind of reaction on a wide range of subjects – again, subjects generally raised by others – from transgenderism to Net Zero to the notion of “hoarding” wealth. Just letting slip that you happen to know some of what needs to be known regarding the subject in question can result in something like annoyance or face-pulling, or assumptions that you’re just being mean or contrarian.
And it’s quite weird, even when it’s happened before, to find yourself having a conversation for reasons that are seemingly incompatible with those of the other person. To find yourself in a game you didn’t know you were playing.
I suppose it’s what Wanye refers to as the difference between trying to figure stuff out and “doing politics.” The latter very often translating as something like craving status.
But if you’re not particularly interested in whether your views are perceived as high-status – if that’s not a priority – then you may well have opinions that differ from – or that are entirely at odds with – those that are perceived as high-status.
I mean, that’s THE party of Hollywood, right? The entertainment industry. Why don’t they have any real talent up there?!
I suspect one reason is because you’re not going to get the likes of someone like Bruce Springsteen to “rise up” unless you pay him a hefty sum.
Good Dad. Bitch ass Boomer.
A roomful of people who need to be bitch-slapped. Repeatedly.
Well, it’s functionally not dissimilar to sitting there trying to drown out an opposing view by making loud farty noises.
Which doesn’t quite sit with the pretensions of intellectual superiority.
Mathing is hard.
What a legacy.
[…] she had her penis […]
“I’ve done nothing wrong.”
(via)
N.B. – see above.
[ Points upthread in a haughty manner. ]
Still, worth highlighting this bit:
We must live in age of miracles. That must be it.
I was just about to amend my comment to reference that.
It’s too late now.
[ Throws scarf over shoulder, slams door. ]
Indeed, and if this doesn’t fix the myriad of health problems in NYC, nothing will.
Meanwhile, there is nothing quite as relaxing as an idyllic island vacation.
It’s practically an inevitability. Like it’s programmed in.
As if that car’s going to last 12 months.
Damn Europeans over here for kickyball are ruining ‘Murca for this poor lass.
Were she to walk into the sea with rocks in her pockets, the situation would improve no end.
Is there a whiff of sarcasm in that video?
In other news.
Regarding which.
This is one of those times where I think the term “both sides” does apply. Whoever is backing that loan, and ultimately it may not necessarily be the white guy making the deal…hell, it may even be the taxpayers….is asking for their own trouble. This will play out not necessarily according to economics, but according to simple human nature. Both sides are taking advantage, or trying to. One will win, one will lose.
That’s how I heard it but admittedly it is on the edge. Sarcasm is getting harder and harder as reality gets more and more absurd.
As if that car’s going to last 12 months.
Precisely why there’s $10K down, and also why there’s likely no questions asked about where that $10K came from in the first place.
Sure it will, repo men are careful.
Our world of inverted morality
I like this meme, too:
Mr. Ball said that. Mr. Ball. Which is not short for Balzac. These are all true statements. Make of them what your dirty little minds will.
Does this thread need cheering up with more boobies?
Does this thread need cheering up with more boobies?
Dr. Maturin would agree
I like to point out that in the fable of The Emperor’s New Clothes, it has to be an emperor and it has to be a child. Forgotten in the industrial age is that an emperor had life and death power over everybody in his domain; kings were generally more constrained, by practicality if not necessarily legality. The reason no one says anything isn’t because they’re afraid that they might be seen as fools – it’s because they’re afraid they’ll be executed for making the Emperor look bad.
Not even an Emperor can execute a child with impunity, so it has to be a child that points out the obvious. The modern equivalent is being cancelled and having your livelihood destroyed.
Around here, a 2023 Challenger R/T costs about $55,000CAD. No idea what the local price is. The interest and amortization period is that high precisely because the dealer has assumed that they’ll default on the loan and this way he’ll get the value of the car before they do. Free market working as designed.