Elsewhere (130)
Matt McCaffrey on our left-leaning, status-conscious intellectual caste:
Intellectuals do not participate in the market (at least not in the areas they write about), and do not generally rely on satisfying consumers to earn a living. Add to this their naturally critical attitude… and it is easy to see why intellectuals would be hostile to the market. In other words, intellectuals are often out of place in entrepreneurial societies. The growth of the intellectual class is not a response to consumer demand, but to the expansion of higher education. Passing through the higher education system does not necessarily confer valuable skills, but it often does convince graduates that work in the market is beneath them.
Somewhat related, this and this.
And Theodore Dalrymple on crime and punishment:
It is easier to forgive the evil done to others than to forgive the evil done to oneself, especially if in the first place we don’t really like those others to whom the evil is done. Then conspicuous forgiveness becomes a kind of sadism, an additional burden to bear for those to whom the evil was done: for as I know from clinical experience with my patients, the lack of proper punishment of the perpetrators of evil is itself a punishment of the victims of it, a punishment that is often long-lasting… This is because it removes from the victims all confidence that there is justice in the world or that anybody cares what happens to them.
This “conspicuous forgiveness,” a kind of vicarious tolerance, can be quite striking in its boldness and disregard for facts, with acts of savagery being met with improbable excuses and rhetorical diversions. Generally from a safe distance. In 2011, following the London riots, China Miéville, a middle-class Marxist and member of the International Socialist Organisation, claimed to be “horrified” that members of the press and public had used the word feral when describing the career predators and assorted thugs who, seeking excitement and a sense of power, had beaten passing pensioners unconscious and burned random women out of their homes. And who, on the arrival of firefighters, had dragged them from their vehicles and punched them insensible.
To use the word feral when describing such people was, Mr Miéville said, our “moral degradation far more than [theirs].” You see, by referring to such behaviour as savage and anti-social, we are the degraded ones in Mr Miéville’s eyes, the ones in need of chastisement. Our compassionate Marxist was hardly alone in his rush to invert reality and flatter the brutish, even as it became clear that an overwhelming majority of the looters, muggers and arsonists had previous convictions for similar crimes, an average of 15, and some more than fifty. Despite such bothersome details, flattery and evasion were very much the done thing as fellow leftists Nina Power, Laurie Penny and Priyamvada Gopal were happy to demonstrate. Presumably on grounds that none of the feral behaviour, the random beatings and violent predation, was being directed at them.
As usual, feel free to add your own links and snippets in the comments. It’s what these posts are for.
where the intellectuals do tend to sort through all the details, and see where those details actually lead . .
If one uses this as a definition then there would seem to exist precious few intellectuals.
Some George Orwell might be useful though:
The whole idea of revenge and punishment is a childish day-dream. Properly speaking, there is no such thing as revenge. Revenge is an act which you want to commit when you are powerless and because you are powerless: as soon as the sense of impotence is removed, the desire evaporates also.
As we’ve seen many times, our middle-class Guardianistas tend to be sympathetic to the working class – as a concept – only when the working class agrees with Guardian orthodoxy.
Well, maybe, for the (possibly straw-stuffed) ‘Guardianista’, but I think most lefties are closer to Orwell (again):
I have no particular love for the idealized “worker” as he appears in the bourgeois Communist’s mind, but when I see an actual flesh-and-blood worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to ask myself which side I am on.
And don’t forget George Monbiot’s bewildered encounter with the not-so-noble savage.
Actually laughed out loud. Brilliant.
Yeah, Orwell was speaking in the context of post war Germany, not a specific criminal responsible for a specific crime. Which itself puts aside the undeniable FACT, mentioned earlier as well, that a locked up hooligan is incapable of committing more crime.
The quoting of Orwell by some is often quite ironic.
And thanks, Hal, for the charm. /sarc
Hi Minnow
I thought it was a strange and distressing dream on Mr Dalrymple’s part. I often have violent dreams myself, but usually involving more agency on my part.
Recently I dreamt that I was fist-fighting a polar bear and my ursine foe tore my left arm off. Enraged, I picked up my severed limb with my remaining arm, and beat the magnificent arctic beastie to death with it.
There were a bunch of elves from Santa’s workshop watching the fight, betting on the bear, and they booed when I won. So I took them all on, knocking them with my arm like it was a cricket bat. The little buggers were biting my legs and trying to stab me with sharpened candy canes.
They say revenge is a dish best served cold, like soup in a fancy restaurant. I say balls to that – revenge should always be served nuclear hot, like a freshly stirred Pot Noodle.
I’ve never been able to get into this “turn the other cheek” thing. That may work for saints and martyrs, but I’m no saint and don’t want to be a martyr.
Now, does that mean revenge and punishment are childish? If the film “Payback” by Mel Gibson taught us anything, it’s that revenge is always justified, and you shouldn’t cross Mel Gibson.
More broadly, criminals in Britain no longer fear the law. We ought to change that.
More broadly, criminals in Britain no longer fear the law. We ought to change that.
Since we put more and more poeple in jail each year, you’d think the opposite, wouldn’t you? What else could we do to increase their fear?
revenge should always be served nuclear hot, like a freshly stirred Pot Noodle.
In other news, I’ve just discovered that Waitrose do a posh version of Pot Noodle. I may have to investigate. For science.
Hi Minnow – we have a rapidly rising population, so yes, you’d expect more people to be in jail.
We need more prisons and stiffer sentences. It’ll be expensive, but law and order is the most basic function of government. We can’t afford to skimp on it.
Take the London riots for example: many of the rioters had dozens of prior convictions. Had they been in prison where they belonged, lives would have been saved.
Plus, think of all the new jobs a major prison building programme will create. It’s a win-win.
David – 🙂
“Failure to follow instructions will bring great shame to yourself and your family.”
A tiny seppuku blade is included in every pack.
We need more prisons and stiffer sentences.
How many more would like to see imprisoned, more or less? We are already beating the rest of Europe bar one, but perhaps we should be aiming to imprison as many as South Africa, say? Or maybe Russia? How ambitious should we be?
Hi Minnow – I think aiming for a rate of imprisonment is the wrong way to look at it.
We should build as many gaols as we need to accomodate violent recidivists. Whether that means we end up with a higher rate of incarceration than Belgium or whatever is irrelevant, because we don’t live in Belgium.
A tiny seppuku blade is included in every pack.
It may be a way to quickly ingest large amounts of MSG without the proletarian stigma.
We should build as many gaols as we need to accomodate violent recidivists.
What reason do you have for thinking that violent recidivists are not already in jail?
Prison doesn’t work! (Man!)
Setting repeat offenders up in free houses next door to Minnow and other clueless bleeding hearts… that works.
For shits and giggles.
Walling such ghettos in after a month or so with millions of copies of News From Nowhere would be sex.
Minnow
What’s your suggestion then for how to respond to criminals ? Please don’t respond with some vague generality about social justice and how crime would wither away if we were all equal, what do you think our response should be to people who commit crimes especially serious ones ?
What’s your suggestion then for how to respond to criminals ?
Look at similar places that have smaller prison populations and less crime than we do and copy them. I don’t think anyone doubts that the following would reduce crime: less poverty, more education, more devolution of political power. Of course some people will still be locked up. I just get a bit queasy when I meet people who seem to be enthusiastic at the prospect. Although I tend to agree with Orwell that the urge is a childish one based in impotence.
Minnow – What reason do you have for thinking that violent recidivists are not already in jail?
Apart from the fact that so many crimes are committed by repeat offenders? Many of them with dozens of prior convictions and multiple ASBOs? Yet they’re free to walk the streets?
Apart from the fact that so many crimes are committed by repeat offenders?
First of all, don’t believe everything you read in the Daily Mail. Second of all, you can’t keep people in jail forever if you want a functional jail system. Maybe there is another way to put a stop to repeat offending? I mean surely people have tried schemes?
http://www.cheshire.police.uk/news–appeals/latest-news/2012/01/scheme-to-reduce-re-offending.aspx
Hi Minnow – I don’t think anyone doubts that the following would reduce crime: less poverty,
We are one of the richest societies on Earth. Even most of our “poor” can afford three square meals a day, Sky TV, cigarettes, booze, and accomodation that most people on the planet would regard as luxurious.
more education,
We have more university places and more kids getting high marks in their GCSE and A Levels than ever before.
more devolution of political power.
Your other points were just wrong, but this one is delightfully eccentric as well as wrong.
“Sorry guv, I wos gunna join your crew to do a bit of armed robbery at the local bookies. But then I remembered we ave a Greater London Authority now. So it’s the straight and narra for me!”
You’re just pulling our legs now, aren’t you? 🙂
We are one of the richest societies on Earth. Even most of our “poor” can afford three square meals a day, Sky TV, cigarettes, booze, and accomodation that most people on the planet would regard as luxurious.
Most people in the world would find two rooms and internal running water luxurious, but I bet you wouldn’t, because you live here not there. And the poor people here feel poor. Personally I don’t blame them. I know what it is like.
We have more university places and more kids getting high marks in their GCSE and A Levels than ever before.
But these are not the repeat offenders. We have to reach them.
more devolution of political power. Your other points were just wrong, but this one is delightfully eccentric as well as wrong.
No, there really is good evidence that people act more lawfully when they feel that they have more control over their lives. In fact, you may even have experienced this in your own life.
“Second of all, you can’t keep people in jail forever if you want a functional jail system. Maybe there is another way to put a stop to repeat offending? I mean surely people have tried schemes?”
Some have suggested whipping for some offenses: severe physical pain as a deterrent, and no incarceration means no long-term living with other criminals to learn how to be a more skillful criminal.
Minnow
I should have known you wouldn’t be able to resist a Marxist response to my question and I should perhaps have phrased it differently. There is nowhere where crime does not exist and I was trying to establish whether you see any moral aspect to this at all, do you think that criminals, for whatever reason, are doing something wrong, If so then what do you suggest is an acceptable response to that ? This is the problem with all essentially utilitarian approaches to crime reduction, if you ignore the need to see crime punished then you are in effect telling the victims that their loss or suffering is not really important, further you undermine general confidence in the trust that we need in one another for society to function properly.
Here’s another question for you, what do you think of the constant feminist complaint that rape convictions are too low ? Leaving aside the accuracy or otherwise of this statement how does the feminist/leftist desire to see more convictions and punishment for this crime square with the view that such responses aren’t needed for other crimes ?
Some have suggested whipping for some offenses
Some have. But surely nobody around here would like to see this sort of grotesquerie return to Britain? Not sure how it prevents violent recidivism either.
But these are not the repeat offenders. We have to reach them.
Where I live, we reach them out to about 500 yards or so with a 5.56mm.
Minnow -I’m disappointed in you. Daily Mail indeed.
And the poor people here feel poor. Personally I don’t blame them. I know what it is like.
So naturally, you turned to crime, yes?
But these are not the repeat offenders. We have to reach them.
I agree. Reach them, then jail them.
No, there really is good evidence that people act more lawfully when they feel that they have more control over their lives.
Political devolution = more control over their lives. Ha! 🙂 So there must be no crime in Wales and Scotland now, right?
In fact, you may even have experienced this in your own life.
The only crimes I’ve committed were under the influence of alcohol. Did you know the police frown on public urination? Fascists!
There is nowhere where crime does not exist and I was trying to establish whether you see any moral aspect to this at all
I do of course. It is entirely wrong for example that so many billions have been robbed by bankers at the cost of so many lives blighted or destroyed without there being any significant retribution. But do we really want to fill our jails with bankers or would it be better to reform the institutions and processes that encourage and facilitate their criminiality, educating them away from antisocial behaviour, helping them to become productive citizens?
Here’s another question for you, what do you think of the constant feminist complaint that rape convictions are too low ?
I think this is probably true and needs to be addressed. You agree with that I am sure. I mean, you don’t want to exempt rapists from retributive justice? But, along with those feminists, I think the most pressing concern is to change the social conditions that make rape likely.
“Vote Minnow. Doom civilization in five years or less.”
Although I tend to agree with Orwell that the urge is a childish one based in impotence.
Again, Orwell was speaking specifically about revenge and again in the specific context of one Jew’s understandable (as Orwell stated) reaction to the Nazi’s who tormented and killed his family. To call such a thing “childish” is childish itself. You are ignoring the other positive aspect of keeping the criminals off the streets during their incarceration time along with any sense of safety and security the known victims that such criminals cannot prey upon them during their incarceration.
And you can help yourself to abide by Thornavis’ request to “Please don’t respond with some vague generality about social justice and how crime would wither away if we were all equal”.
As for crime and poverty, every one of my first and second generation ancestors grew up poor. Coal miners, farmers, laborers, etc. None of them stole. They had values. A point recently reinforced when discussing such with my 98 year old cousin. There have been times and histories past that you have no understanding nor consciousness of but what you have been fed by left wing and Marxist ideology.
And actually “Since we put more and more people in jail each year, you’d think the opposite, wouldn’t you?” in the US it has shown that crime rates go down as incarcerations go up, relative to population size. Of course many other factors are involved but to argue that locking up criminals does not affect the crime rate is ivory tower BS. See P&C above re “educated fools”. Though I would argue that persons such as yourself are not so much educated, nor even of high IQ. The more dangerous aspects of P&C’s post are those hangers on/followers who lack even the education and intelligence to understand the dogma you repeat but simply pose as such by adopting the rhetoric. Similar to certain pious religious and cult followers who lack the understanding of the words they spew.
Lastly, don’t believe everything you read in Les Miserables. It was an idealized work of fiction and as such, for all its good points, has its flaws.
Political devolution = more control over their lives. Ha! 🙂 So there must be no crime in Wales and Scotland now, right?
There really is one than one way to devolve power. I would want to see a substantial increase in economic power too.
I am slightly bemused by all the people who think that social circumstances have no effect on criminality. Do they think it is just a coincidence that repeat offenders tend to be poor people, with low levels of education and a history of violent and/or sexual abuse? Or is it a genetic thing?
Where I live, we reach them out to about 500 yards or so with a 5.56mm
Ah, how excitingly butch! I bet you have an eye patch too!
As for crime and poverty, every one of my first and second generation ancestors grew up poor. Coal miners, farmers, laborers, etc. None of them stole.
All that you can confidently claim is that none of them was ever caught stealing.
Hi Minnow – I would want to see a substantial increase in economic power too.
That’s easy. They have these things called jobs… 😉
Do they think it is just a coincidence that repeat offenders tend to be poor people,
Course not. Poverty and poor decision making skills, lack of impulse control etc. go hand in hand. A wise man once said “the poor will always be with you”, and he was right. Even if we divvied up all the world’s wealth equally today, within a year or two we’d go back to having relatively wealthy and relatively poor people. Because we’re not all the same.
That’s easy. They have these things called jobs… 😉
Unfortunately, not enough for everyone.
A wise man once said “the poor will always be with you”, and he was right.
We can choose whether he was right or not. We don’t have to wait until the next world, although I can see it is convenient if the poor can be persuaded that is true.
All that you can confidently claim is that none of them was ever caught stealing.
There is only one proper response to that, given the distance. Fuck you. Who the $%(& do you think you are? So if wildly speculating is the game today, you little worthless shit sitting in your basement while your wife delivers cupcakes to your (admittedly) fat ass…What have you contributed to society? How do we know that you’re not a common thief who has grown too damn fat to commit crimes so now you subsist on the dole, possibly while your poor wife goes out to make the dough. I mean, it’s certainly possible, of course. Can’t rule it out.
Minnow – Unfortunately, not enough for everyone.
Nonsense. We have so many jobs going, we import immigrants by the lorryload to fill them.
We can choose whether he was right or not. We don’t have to wait until the next world, although I can see it is convenient if the poor can be persuaded that is true.
Well, I found that being poor sucks, so I decided not to be poor any more. It’s worked out well so far.
If others want to sit on their backsides and cry about how they’re not getting enough freebies, well, let me just find my invisible tiny violin so I can play them a sad, sad song…