Ophelia Benson is pondering the word “pussy” and its connotations. In response to this Jesus and Mo cartoon on protecting deities from ridicule, a commenter writes,
I’ve always wondered [why] the gods of today, especially the god of Islam, is such a pussy. He is unable to do a thing to protect himself or his reputation and must rely on his minions to do his dirty work.
Ophelia takes exception and replies,
The god of Islam “is such a pussy. He is unable to do a thing to protect himself or his reputation and must rely on his minions to do his dirty work” – meaning women are weak cowardly parasites.
Oh. What happened there? How did we get from this:
I’ve always wondered [why] the gods of today, especially the god of Islam, is such a pussy. He is unable to do a thing to protect himself or his reputation and must rely on his minions to do his dirty work.
To this?
meaning women are weak cowardly parasites.
I realise the ambiguities of the word “pussy” may vary on the other side of the Atlantic, where the dubious sexual connotations are perhaps more often emphasised and have a less whimsical air. (Maybe it’s a generational thing, or a gay man thing, or a trash sitcom thing, but when I hear “pussy” in a sexual context, if anything at all comes to mind it could well be Mrs Slocombe from Are You Being Served?) On the very rare occasions I’ve used the word – ironically and with a terrible American accent – I’ve used it to denote a kind of feebleness. Naïve soul that I am, I took the intended meaning here to be that Allah appears to be a sissy, coward or weakling, perhaps rather pampered, like a house cat; not that Allah in some way resembles the female genitals, or that the aforementioned body parts are contemptible, or that all women are contemptible. (Conceivably, some female non-Muslims may take exception to the suggestion – if one were made – that their ladygarden is in any way similar to the befuddled deity of Islam.)
But Ophelia – who is, I think, American and perhaps more accustomed to hearing the vulgar, sexual usage – remains unconvinced:
Here’s a thought experiment. Suppose you were talking to the barmaid [who often appears in the cartoon] – would you say to the barmaid, “The god of Islam is such a pussy. He is unable to do a thing to protect himself or his reputation and must rely on his minions to do his dirty work”? Maybe you would, maybe you would. But I wonder. I don’t think it’s accidental that none of my male friends and correspondents ever use “pussy” or “twat” or “cunt” that way in conversation or correspondence with me. If there’s a reason for that… then perhaps there’s something wrong with the terminology; perhaps that something is that it’s sexist.
Well, I don’t regard myself as particularly sexist and I understood the intended meaning as unobjectionable – unless, that is, one believes Allah is the creator of the universe and a top-notch guy. I’ve heard at least two women use the word “twat” with pejorative gusto to describe a man, and I’ve talked to women who used the word “dick” in its derogatory sense without taking umbrage personally or on behalf of menfolk everywhere. (I was, of course, assuming they weren’t talking about me.) And though I’d be mindful that the word “pussy” has other, very different, meanings from the ones I mentioned above, I’m not sure one can assume that its usage, as above, necessarily signifies some objectionable intent or basis for indignation.
Over at B&W, the discussion rumbles on.
Update: The Thin Man just reminded me of a stirring moment from Team America:
Sexual references? Certainly. Though readers searching for intimations of misogyny may have to look long and hard.
Five years ago I lived in Newcastle, a quiet little Australian city with a big university and small everything else. I liked picking up their student publication, Opus, from time to time.
Well, one issue I picked up had a backpage photo of the cast from the US Christian family drama ‘Seventh Heaven’, with a target painted over them, with some spiel below about them perpetuating ‘sickening wholesome family values’ and encouraging readers to go for their life.
An issue or so later, they ran a front cover spread with images from various religions. Jesus got a go; also Buddha, a Hindu god (I forget now), and Mohammed was there too.
A Muslim student wrote in to complain, and immediately drew a GROVELLING apology from the editors, berating themselves for insensitivity/bla bla bla.
So apparently it was all right to make fun of Christian ‘family values’ but not make fun of Mohammed! Double standards, anyone?
Anyway, just a little story that I remembered just now.
I’m outraged. No, wait. That other thing. Confused.
If I call someone a pussy I’m not calling them a vagina. Am I?
I should add, the kids from Opus did get a serve from a local blowhard at the Newcastle Herald, but only for their grovelling apology, not for the inconsistency (which he hadn’t noticed, he didn’t follow the magazine).
“If I call someone a pussy I’m not calling them a vagina. Am I?”
That wouldn’t be my understanding, no. Though synonyms for ladies’ unspeakables aren’t my area of expertise.
OB says:
“Certain epithets just are not really ambiguous; they can’t be. ‘Nigger’ is the best known in the US and maybe elsewhere; kike, raghead, kaffir are a few more. Queer and dyke have been reclaimed, and there is a school of thought that ‘bitch’ has but I think on the contrary, ‘bitch’ is more viciously misogynist than ever. And so are, as far as I know, pussy, twat and cunt.”
But *some* men ARE pussies and dicks and *some* women ARE bitches. As long as we’re talking about people those labels fit, what’s the problem?
“But *some* men ARE pussies and dicks and *some* women ARE bitches. As long as we’re talking about people those labels fit, what’s the problem?”
Well, quite. On occasion I’ve used the word “bitch” to describe particular women who were objectionable and malicious, and I’ve done so in the presence of other women, none of whom assumed I was speaking of women generally. I’ve heard women use “bitch” to describe women *they* found objectionable and I somehow doubt they were implying some default condition of womanhood.
So is ‘pussyfooting’ a taboo word now?
And pusillanimous. 😉
And what about snatch land rovers?
As for ‘bitch’. Would anyone argue that Lord Voldemort (Mandelson) ISN’T one?
I seem to recall OB getting her knickers in a twist about some joke you posted a while back. I think we have to accept that, more-or-less on the money though she often is, she has her blind spots, hence this curiously wilful misunderstanding when it comes to certain things perceived to do with ‘women’, or attitudes to them, or something. She’s on a hair-trigger to perceive offence where there is none. Which is kinda ironic, dontcha think?
Oh, and she’s being purely parochial when it comes to people using (what she misperceives to be) ‘sexist’ derogatory epithets. ‘Twat’ is just idiot, moron, that sort of thing. ‘Cunt’ is merely the strongest swear-word to use; sweary girls use it the same way sweary men do, and I would use it with both, and would avoid it with non-sweary people of either sex. Pussy is less a UK thing I think, but, if used, the presence of men or women in my vacinity would be irrelevant.
To be frank I thought “pussy” meaning weak was of American origin.
Insulting weak men as being being effeminate is in the same territory as calling him a pussy. It has the same purpose. Having said that I can’t agree at all with Orphelia. This is “You can’t say that because victim group X will be offended” territory. Perhaps the argument should be about the virtues of non-violence rather than putting down people who don’t agree with the language restrictions.
Separatist feminists regard the non-violent nature of most women as a virtue. They take pride in the difference and in that context a non-smiting goddess might be considered rather a compliment. In contrast the common description of Maggie Thatcher is that she was not being a “true” to womankind; she was somehow following a male agenda.
It seems that non-violence as an attribute of womankind gets a pass if it is classed a virtue but a veto if it is classed a limitation. Words like “effeminate”, “pussy” must advance approved values OR not be used at all. Thatcher can’t be feminine because capitalism is anti-women. Our commentator can’t use the word pussy because it reminds the reader that women being weaker is a limitation.
My view is that women might be viewed as stronger if they stopped getting the vapours over nasty words.
I was amused by:
“none of my male friends and correspondents ever use “pussy” or “twat” or “cunt” that way in conversation or correspondence with me.”
I recall a conversion in which a feminist was outraged at the idea of men who change their language in front of women. She thought the idea that men would use vulgarities or swear words to each other but moderate their language when in the presence of women was a sign of condescension. I’m sure OB didn’t mean it that way but the first thought that came to mind: Frankly my dear I don’t give a damn.
TDK,
“Insulting weak men as being effeminate is in the same territory as calling him a pussy.”
Insofar as I’d given it much thought, I’d assumed “pussy” (in the sense of timid, overly delicate, etc) was a corruption of “pusillanimous” and had nothing to do with vaginas or any disposition towards them. It’s possibly acquired other overtones, at least to some people, but it doesn’t strike me as a “sexist epithet.” I didn’t – and don’t – make that connection, and nor did the people I asked this morning.
Mary Jackson finds the whole thing reminiscent of the word “bugger,” which lacks its whimsical subtleties overseas. She’s also discovered what must surely be one of the more unfortunate real names…
http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/20371
“As for ‘bitch’. Would anyone argue that Lord Voldemort (Mandelson) ISN’T one?”
I’d argue that he’s guilty of far worse things as a politician than making you uncomfortable about your sexuality.
And that he’s more of an asshole.
Which is worse -bitch (for a rude or aggressive woman) or prick (for a rude or aggressive man)? Is prick worse than dick? What about knob, as in “he’s a right knob”? Where do we stand on “twat” and “wanker”? Aren’t they only used about men? Is that sexist?
Let me take a step back.
The objective of politically correct language is twofold
1. To flag (by usage) those righteous people who can be taken seriously in any debate. If you fail to use the latest PC term your contribution can be ignored.
2. To render impossible certain thoughts deemed wicked.
Your argument is focuses on whether “pussy” is or isn’t PC. Defending it on the grounds that it derives from pusillanimous (plausible but new to me) or can be defined in certain PC ways avoids tacit PC argument that words have meaning outside the intent of the user. The etymology of the word doesn’t clarify the issue. I would say that’s the wrong argument and you concede too much.
The most import issue, the intent of the user, was absolutely clear and that ought to be the end of it. If OB didn’t understand that usage then it reflects badly upon her but she shows no sign of humility. But this is typical of PC debates. The advocates claim righteousness by supposedly acting in good faith to protect the nominated victim groups.
My point (which I didn’t make too well because I have to sneak in blog viewing amongst work) is that perhaps we should be attacking the very idea of protecting nominated victim groups from offensive language. That’s not to say that people have no right to be offended or that we should start thinking well of people who use the term n*gg*r but that we should attack the people who pre-emptively seek to pervert language to one political outcome.
The idea that women are so weak and pathetic that they can’t achieve equality unless certain words cease to be used, tends to support the notion that all women really are “pussies” (in the weak and pathetic sense).
TDK,
“Your argument focuses on whether ‘pussy’ is or isn’t PC.”
Does it? Well, if the word (in this context) is derived from pusillanimous, as I assume it is, I’m sure some people will find reasons to object anyway. Not that that validates their objection, and efforts to dictate the language one may use tend to arouse my suspicion. (I don’t mean to suggest that’s Ophelia’s intent, but it does happen elsewhere.) If I say something that offends someone, the offended party (or party claiming to be offended) doesn’t get exclusive rights to divine my intention or decide how many times I should be horsewhipped. Though there are quite a few people who, in the name of “social justice,” maintain that the offended party is the only one that matters.
See, for instance, here:
“Any form of activity, whether covert or overt, that creates a significantly uncomfortable, threatening, or harassing environment… will be handled judicially and may be grounds for immediate disciplinary action… and criminal prosecution. The conduct does not have to be intended to harass. The conduct is evaluated from the complainant’s perspective.”
http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/10386.html
Or this:
“What really makes me angry about this whole situation is non-trans people deciding what is and is not transphobia… The sentiment of this release is blatant transphobia, and the section calling it otherwise is just rhetoric. *I don’t really believe that anyone has the right or ability to accurately gauge their own actions as phobic or not. The community being harmed is the only one with the perspective necessary to make that distinction.* It is overstepping and disrespectful, to say the least, for the non-trans authors of this release to say that their policies are not transphobic and further to attempt to explain why.”
https://thompsonblog.co.uk/2008/05/tears-and-role.html
Thus, injustice is defined, unilaterally, by feelings, or claims of feelings, and of course by leverage. Phobias, prejudice and oppression become whatever the Designated Victim Group or its representative *says* they are. And the basis for apology, compensation and flattery becomes whatever the Designated Victim Group *says* it is. (One could, of course, replace the word “transphobia” with “heresy” or “witchcraft.”)
“The most import[ant] issue, the intent of the user, was absolutely clear and that ought to be the end of it.”
Agreed. I found it baffling, given the context, that genuine misunderstanding of intent was possible.
My 3.5 year old daughter Destructo is the farthest thing from being a pussy.
According to Merriam-Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pussy%5B4%5D
Etymology: short for pussycat
Date: circa 1942
slang : a weak or cowardly man or boy : wimp , sissy
End of debate, surely?
Wasn’t there a case recently in America of a “scandal” generated by someone’s use of the word ‘niggardly’? I seem to recall he was dismissed from his employment.
“Well, if the word is derived from pusillanimous, as I assume it is, I’m sure some people will find reasons to object anyway.”
Yes, I’m reminded that niggardly is verboten.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/jan99/district27.htm
Clearly that word has nothing to do with n*gg*r, yet the sound was close enough to end his job.
That illustrates my point that the defence has to be a bit more robust.
Oh dear … in the middle of comments thread about the joys of offending the religious she kicks off like a Muslim because someone says ‘pussy’? It’s a little bizarre.
For what it’s worth, I’ve always understood pussy to refer to the infant cat in these circumstances. “Don’t be such a pussy” is the same as “Don’t be such a pussycat”, whereas “Got myself a piece of pussy last night” is the same as “Got myself a piece of ass last night.” On the other hand, “Don’t be such an ass” is the same as ‘Don’t be such a twat” but NOT the same as “Don’t be such a pussy.” It’s all very confusing, which is why a bit of caution is advisable before kicking off like a M.
Why do we give a shit that some cunt-flapper is offended?
There was an uproar at a city council meeting in Dallas, Texas last year because a council member used the term “black hole” to characterize an agency where paperwork had disappeared. Demands were made for an apology, and to use the term “white hole” instead.
http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/07/dallas-county-meeting-turns-ra.html
“And what about snatch land rovers?”
Retrieving that very interesting comment, I realized that it is perhaps a species of special-language-joke, known only to a few. At least on this side of the pond.
i.e. British Army slang refers to those narrow armored land rovers used for “snatch-and-grab” detainee operations originally in northern Ireland and lately in Basra and other vacation spots in southern Iraq.
Indeed, when I was in Basra a few years back on an all-expense-paid working vacation ordered by Uncle Sam, I saw a poster in the fuel depot that looked like so:
“Clean up your kit”
[inserted here was a picture of a vehicle filled with gear and empty water bottles]
“Nobody likes a dirty snatch”
Well, on the etymology question, according to the good old OED, “pussy” by itself originated as a word meaning cat, being a derivative of an old German word for cat. It dates the use as slang for a woman’s genitals to 1699, and as slang for a “sweet or effeminate male; (in later use chiefly) a weakling, a coward, a sissy. Also: a male homosexual” to 1904, in the sense of tame housecat. Incidentally, pusillanimous is derived from a Latin root, meaning small and weak, and is unrelated to “pussy”. Ahh, the joy of false cognates.
Given this origin, it seems that there are anti-female connotations in the use of pussy as an epithet, but not direct ones. Women are associated with cats, because cats are supposed to be weak and pretty, which people considered virtues in women. Weak and pretty were not considered virtues in men; thus associating a man with a cat says that he possesses traits traditionally considered effeminate. The issue seems to be lingering value judgments given to traditional gender roles more than anything.
The gentleman in Washington DC was reinstated after a proper stink was made.
As for OB, I don’t understand what she means by “sexist,” although I gather that it has something to do with an attitude towards women with which she disapproves. She supports freedom of speech for those who disparage Islam but then she seems to want to censor those who disparage the foibles of women. Seems a bit inconsistent to me.
AC1,
That really doesn’t help.
Ad Astra,
“Given this origin, it seems that there are anti-female connotations in the use of pussy as an epithet, but not direct ones… Women are associated with cats, because cats are supposed to be weak and pretty, which people considered virtues in women… The issue seems to be lingering value judgments given to traditional gender roles more than anything.”
It seems to me these “anti-female connotations” and “lingering value judgments” are being *assumed* as omnipresent and necessarily objectionable, irrespective of whether the original commenter intended them, or was even aware of them. It’s as though almost any use of the word “pussy,” whatever its derivation or intended meaning, is made suspect by a cloud of (often fanciful) associations and antiquated baggage, much of it indirect. Even if one assumes the intended meaning is the vulgar one, vulgarity isn’t the same thing as malice. But what if those associations and that baggage – for instance, that “women are weak cowardly parasites” – are in the mind of the person taking umbrage but not the mind of the person speaking? Who gets to decide what the grounds for umbrage and atonement are? Whose feelings and understandings matter most – the doctrinaire umbrage-taker or the sap who may find himself being berated for someone else’s associations and someone else’s baggage?
@ David,
I’m not saying that everyone who ever calls anyone a pussy has lurking anti-female thoughts; I can easily see “pussy” just being a synonym for “weakling”, especially for non-Americans (’cause in America, at least among anyone I’ve known, it’s pretty clearly also a word for women’s genitalia), but that doesn’t change the fact that the word’s got a whole set of unpleasant feelings floating around it, at least for a lot of people out there.
Note here that I’m agreeing with you that the unpleasantness is often only in the mind of the hearer. I think that, given your explanation for your feelings on the matter, you don’t deserve to be berated. However, I still think that, as a matter of politeness and as a matter of discouraging leftover sexist patterns of thought, it’s better not to go around calling people pussies, at least in seriousness. The things we say have consequences, even if they’re only in other peoples’ minds, and to expect otherwise is foolishness. Basically, it comes down to a question of why you want to use the word in the first place. Just because you learned it without sexist connotations doesn’t mean that, historically, it doesn’t carry them. Do you agree that placing quasi-moral value judgments on sex roles is bad? If you do, I can’t see how you can defend the continued use of a word when you know its origins and you know the effect it’s going to have on many people. If you don’t, than that’s a whole different political argument, and I withdraw my objection.
Again from Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: left
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English, weak
Main Entry: sinister
Etymology: Middle English sinistre, from Anglo-French senestre on the left, from Latin sinistr-, sinister on the left side, unlucky, inauspicious
Also: it’s not a coincidence that “right” is a synonym for “correct” and that we speak of human “rights” rather than “lefts”.
If we have to worry about the PC-ness of etymology we’re all in trouble.
@Paul Power:
Yes, I understand that this argument can be taken too far, but I think there’s a significant difference between the perception of discrimination against left-handed people and the perception of discrimination against women. I also wouldn’t go around arguing for a law against using “pussy” to mean weak, or even get terribly angry with someone who does, I just think that, as a matter of politeness and good practice, one ought not to. There are plenty of other words that contain the necessary meaning, but don’t have the objectionable connotation. Why use a word that has connotations that you disagree with politically when another would work just as well?
Ad Astra,
“Do you agree that placing quasi-moral value judgments on sex roles is bad?”
It’s not something I spend my time doing. But, to me, it’s a leap from (for instance) my using the word “pussy” meaning a kind of feebleness to the “placing of quasi-moral value judgments on sex roles.” I’m not at all sure how we get from one to the other. That isn’t what’s happening in my head.
How the term is used – which meaning is intended (or not intended) – is a matter of some importance. And if the disagreeable connotations are disputed, regional, fanciful or indirect, then the speaker’s intention matters more. Returning to the example that started this discussion, does anyone really believe that the speaker meant to assert that “women are weak cowardly parasites” or that he was entertaining any such idea? I see no reason to assume he was. And acting *as if* he were doing that, or assuming that he’s somehow encouraging “leftover sexist patterns of thought” seems fraught with difficulties. The urge to “correct” patterns of thought deemed improper leads to some very sinister territory. I may well avoid people who offend me gratuitously and repeatedly, but on the whole I don’t feel entitled to remodel their psychology.
Ad Astra:
You’re missing the point. There is no link between “pussy” meaning weak and “pussy” referring to something to do with women that applies the former meaning onto women. They are entirely separate derivations.
The former comes from “pussycat”, the latter’s origin is given as “perhaps of Low German or Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse pūss pocket, pouch, Low German pūse vulva, Old English pusa bag ” by Merriam-Webster.
Unless you think that all cats are female the link does not exist.
Just because you think it exists does not make it so, any more than naming a child “Randy” is a comment on its future sexual promiscuity.
Ad Astra,
“I also wouldn’t go around arguing for a law against using ‘pussy’ to mean weak, or even get terribly angry with someone who does, I just think that, as a matter of politeness and good practice, one ought not to.”
But isn’t it telling that one might even feel obliged to say one *wouldn’t* go around arguing for a law against saying such-and-such? When did it become conceivable? It seems to me indicative of the prevailing climate and the options that quite a few people now entertain as justified. Sadly, as the archives here illustrate, others feel entitled to do much more than personally avoid coarse or ambiguous terms. My main concern – which is in no way directed at you – is that some presume to turn their personal “ought nots” into “thou shalt nots” by shoehorning law and official penalty into areas of intimacy and enormous subjectivity. Cue the spread of egregious speech codes, hypersensitivity training and institutional grievance-mongering:
https://thompsonblog.co.uk/2008/12/insufficiently-sensitive.html
https://thompsonblog.co.uk/2009/03/treatment-.html
The general idea seems to be that we’ll have an ever-growing list of words and symbols whose every conceivable association, however obscure or tendentious, must be borne in mind whenever one opens one’s mouth in public, for fear that one’s intentions may be grossly misconstrued. If only by those determined to misconstrue for reasons of their own. And isn’t that asking rather a lot? Moral objections aside, isn’t that a recipe for something like neurosis?
‘Where do we stand on “twat” and “wanker”?’
On “twat” I’m sitting on the fence. “Wanker” is getting out of hand. “Prick” doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny.
Being American, OB may not have read Viz or watched Are You Being Served, so allowances must be made.
I am reminded of the story of the captain of the English cricket team who was called a “bastard” by one of his Australian opponents. He reported the incident to the Aussie captain but was unable to identify the culprit. The Aussie captain lined up his team in the presence of the Englishman and said: “Right, which of you bastards called this bastard a ‘bastard’?”
In Australia “bastard” is often a term of endearment, as in “the poor bastard”.
When considering the issue of offence, you have to consider only the intent of the speaker. Inadvertently saying something inappropriate is a social faux pas, not a hanging offence.
Even if you do not accept this, Ad Astra, there is still a requirement of good manners on the part of the audience, not to ignore the speaker’s intent and to keep things in perspective. This is not in evidence in Ophelia’s comments quoted here. Allowances have to be made for everyone by everyone. What Ophelia is doing here is refusing to make allowances for others while demanding that the rest of us make allowances for her.
In the Jesus and Mo thread it’s OB who comes across as intolerant and pretty aggressive, at first anyway.
Well, these things can become very charged and polarised and a tad doctrinaire. I’ve lost count of the online conversations in which I’ve had to point out that my objection to one thing doesn’t imply my endorsement of its opposite or of something else entirely. For instance, if one sees serious problems with the policing of language and with presuming what others mean in very loaded ways, some may assume one is therefore in *favour* of people being treated shabbily. The idea being, I think, that one is somehow giving tacit approval to meanness and stupidity. In fact, it may simply be the case that the urge to inhibit speech of which one disapproves is, at least in the long term, much more worrisome than the mouthing of crudity.
The key is not so much that “offence” has occured, but that the offendee has decided to instruct the rest of the populace of their “error”. Or other well wishers that want to make sure that all persons everywhere are not offended in the future.
Those who would be offended, will always be offended. Especially when they supplant the intent and meaning of the speaker and replace the speakers words with a narrative of their own construction. It especially grinds my gears when they then demand that you appologize for this narrative you did not construct.
“It especially grinds my gears when they then demand that you apologize for this narrative you did not construct.”
If someone were to do this, yes I think it would. That the word “pussy” has genital connotations in one kind of usage doesn’t mean it automatically has that same genital meaning, or one much worse and more elaborate, when used in another sense altogether. As has been demonstrated, people have quite different understandings of the phrase “don’t be such a pussy,” along with its associations, derivation and tenor.
But among those inclined to umbrage, the belief seems to be that “don’t be such a pussy” must be taken as meaning (at least in part) something like “don’t be a feeble, contemptible woman” or “don’t be like her equally contemptible genitals.” This was news to me (and news to the women I asked yesterday). To insist that this bundle of associations is the primary, “official” understanding to which all else must defer is… well, puzzling.
@ Paul Power:
I see that etymology in MW, but frankly, I trust the OED more, especially since they have examples of use as a word for women’s genitals from far before MW’s origin date of “circa 1879”. And while you’re right that the use as an epithet for weak appears to come from the sense of “housecat” rather than “vagina”, my argument is that since among many, many people the word is inextricably tied up with vulgar slang for genitalia, as well as traditional feminine traits generally, there’s no good reason to use the word.
@ David re speech laws:
I suppose it is telling, in a sense, but I really don’t think it’s all that relevant to this debate. Does that fact that some people think their personal sense of offense should override others’ civil rights mean that no one can ever feel like someone else ought not say certain things? I don’t like slippery slope arguments, because they’re almost always wrong.
@ David, et al generally:
I understand that the main problem is that you don’t think it’s fair to call people misogynists when they had no such sense in mind. I agree. What I don’t understand is, now that you know many people do see it, for better or for worse, as having sexist connotations, why you feel compelled not only to continue using such words, but to defend their use vehemently. I know you’ve said you don’t like analogies on subjects like this, but I’d genuinely like to know how you distinguish these cases:
1: Let’s say I’ve picked up the habit common among certain American youths of calling everything I don’t like “gay”. Through a series of unlikely events, I never learned that gay is a word meaning “homosexual”. I actually have nothing against homosexuals, and am in favor of equal rights for them. Not knowing the source of the word, I go about my business calling things that I think are bad or stupid gay. Someone calls me on it. However, I say that since I don’t have any homophobic intent in mind, I’m perfectly justified in continuing to call things I don’t like gay, regardless of what others think.
2: I really like the sound of the word “nigger”. I just love the way it rolls off my tongue. I have no animus towards black people, I just really like the word. Therefore, I start using it as a filler word: where other people might say “um”, or “ah”, I say “nigger”. Many people around me take offense, but since I don’t mean it in any racist way, I continue to do so.
Would I be justified in either of these analogies?
When can we have a debate about women calling men “pricks” and “dicks”?
@ pam402:
Here would work for me. I don’t like that either. Do we really need to be asserting that our genitals are bad things?
Ad Astra,
“Does that fact that some people think their personal sense of offense should override others’ civil rights mean that no one can ever feel like someone else ought not say certain things?”
No, and I don’t recall suggesting otherwise.
“…now that you know many people do see it, for better or for worse, as having sexist connotations, why you feel compelled not only to continue using such words, but to defend their use vehemently.”
I didn’t realise I was compelled to do any such thing, vehemently or otherwise. Though the “sexist” default and implication of oppression and gender-based unfairness is disputed for reasons stated earlier. (If one person doesn’t like the use of “pussy,” meaning wimp, can others make similar demands regarding “dick,” etc?)
“Would I be justified in either of these analogies?”
There is a whiff of question-begging. 🙂
Let me try to clarify. As Paul and Chris pointed out earlier, a complainant who ignores or overrides the speaker’s intent, or most likely intent, and insists instead on a detailed formulation of their own is not an entirely sympathetic figure. If someone says, “the god of Islam is such a pussy,” it doesn’t seem fair or reasonable to instantly assume – with nothing else to go on – that the speaker intends some egregious slur against women, or is somehow tacitly endorsing such things, consciously or otherwise, and is thus deserving of rebuke.
I’m quite happy to concede that Person X may hear the phrase (or some other phrase) with very different associations in their head and may not appreciate its use. Fine, I’m a nice guy. We can work around that. I suspect many of us would be willing to negotiate these things in face-to-face exchanges. But we’re talking about the broader assumptions, not just a personal one-to-one exchange, and hence the attempt to fathom what’s involved. What’s irksome is the attempt by some to insist that their understanding of the phrase, or of some other term, however detailed and tendentious, and regardless of context, is the “official” one – the one that everyone else should have in mind or, when pressed, defer to in all public utterance. Those of us not immersed in the finer points of feminist theorising may find it odd that those theories apparently allow the pejorative use of “prick” and its variants by women, but not “pussy” by men, irrespective of their intent.
Accusations of question-begging aside (which I don’t see the foundation of), I actually agree with much of what you just posted. I think that Ophelia overreacted in the Jesus & Mo comments, for the same reason you stated: we don’t know what was going on in the poster’s head at the time. That doesn’t change my argument that there isn’t any good reason to use a word when many people have a not-unjustified belief that the word carries a lot of misogynistic baggage. Once you know that’s the case, why do you defend the use of the word? If your response had been, “I think Ophelia was being too sensitive about the whole incident, because even I didn’t realize that there was such a sexual charge to the word for many people. Now that I do know, however, I’ll refrain from using the word, or at least strongly consider why I’m using it.” That doesn’t seem to have been your reaction, though, and that’s what I’m trying to get at. I also completely agree with you regarding “prick” and “dick” – no need for them, for similar reasons.
I still want to hear why you think my analogies are question-begging or otherwise inapt.
I’d also like to say that, to the extent that your earlier comment regarding speech laws was just a statement that institutional speech codes are idiotic and a blight on intellectual development, I completely agree. Free speech is one of the most fundamental rights we can have, and I don’t support any state or organizational limitation on it other than the most egregious of treasons and defamations. I was objecting only to what I perceived as a counter-argument to what I had been saying.
Now that Ad Astra is commenting here I feel that perhaps I can dare to comment without being drowned in a torrent of sexist garbage (like being called a cunt-flapper, to be specific, in case anyone wants to say I’m over-reacting again).
The funny thing is I agree about prick and dick, and have been saying so at Butterflies and Wheels.
I don’t really agree that I over-reacted at Jesus and Mo, though. I just looked at my comments again, and I don’t see it. The first one simply pointed out – quite abruptly, perhaps rudely, but no more than that – that to say the god of Islam is “such a pussy. He is unable to do a thing to protect himself or his reputation and must rely on his minions to do his dirty work” is to say that women are weak cowardly parasites.
Is that really such an over-reaction? It may be a misinterpretation, given that I didn’t realize at the time that ‘pussy’ is not so unmistakably a sexist epithet in the UK as it is in the US – but it’s not a torrent of abuse, is it now. In particular, I nowhere upbraid the commenter as such. I say that because I’ve been accused of doing just that several times here, but I didn’t. I certainly didn’t say the commenter was misogynist.
Who, exactly, is over-reacting? I think you’re doing some over-reacting of your own, David.
“a complainant who ignores or overrides the speaker’s intent, or most likely intent, and insists instead on a detailed formulation of their own is not an entirely sympathetic figure. If someone says, “the god of Islam is such a pussy,” it doesn’t seem fair or reasonable to instantly assume – with nothing else to go on – that the speaker intends some egregious slur against women, or is somehow tacitly endorsing such things, consciously or otherwise, and is thus deserving of rebuke.”
That’s tendentious, and I would argue, wrong. It’s not a formulation of my own; it’s the US understanding of the word. It’s not true that I had nothing else to go on; the comment itself spelled out what was meant. Also, remember, I did not know that the US understanding was different from the UK one, so I didn’t know I had any need for anything else to go on. If you see the word “nigger” used in what looks like an unambiguous way, you don’t cast about for other readings without good reason.
“What’s irksome is the attempt by some to insist that their understanding of the phrase, or of some other term, however detailed and tendentious, and regardless of context, is the “official” one – the one that everyone else should have in mind or, when pressed, defer to in all public utterance.”
I’m not doing that – I’m not saying it’s the “official” one – I am saying it’s one that can’t just be brushed off as if it didn’t exist. I have taken in that there are other readings – but you don’t seem to have taken in that the pejorative one is very strong and very hard to get rid of.
“Those of us not immersed in the finer points of feminist theorising may find it odd that those theories apparently allow the pejorative use of “prick” and its variants by women, but not “pussy” by men, irrespective of their intent.”
Well my theory doesn’t, so the sneer is misplaced.
A bit more about the abruptness of the original comment – it was meant to be abrupt, or irritable, or mildly rude if you like. That’s because there is often a very laddish blokey haw-haw atmosphere in the comments at Jesus and Mo, which annoys me, because I think J and M is much better than that, and also because, after all, the barmaid is the voice of reason there. I make mildly abrupt comments about sexism now and then by way of reminding commenters that women exist too, and read J and M too.
I asked author if I should stop doing that, and author said please don’t stop. So I don’t feel very apologetic about it, frankly. I don’t think I did much harm.
OB, I know you don’t think you overreacted, and I don’t think that your sentiment was an overreaction. My feeling is that, when there’s room for misunderstanding (which is all the time on the internet), it makes sense to approach situations like this, which are fraught with opportunities for people to get angry and defensive, with a presumption of good will. I’m from the US too, and I agree that here, pussy is unavoidably a sexual term, but even here, people using it in the sense of “wimp” may not have that in mind. I hate the “blokey haw-haw” of that and a lot of other comment threads too, and I understand the desire to break into that with strong words, I just don’t know how productive it can ever really be. If you state your position without temper, then maybe people of good intent will think about it, and agree. If you state it abruptly, with strong words, especially in that sort of environment, blokey testosterone-fuelled defensiveness is likely to result. If you’re ok with that, that’s fine, but it you should recognize that it’s probably not the best hearts-and-minds strategy.
Ophelia,
“I’m not doing that – I’m not saying it’s the ‘official’ one […] so the sneer is misplaced.”
On re-reading, I see I’ve been unclear and blurred the distinctions between what you said yesterday and my experiences with others who take a broadly similar view and invoke feminist rationales. Apologies.
Ad Astra,
“Once you know that’s the case, why do you defend the use of the word?”
I’m not really “defending” the phrase “such a pussy” or any of its variants. I’m just interested in the basis of the various reactions to it and the assumptions that seem to be in play – and the implications of proscribing language generally. It’s a broader concern, not particular to “pussy.” I’m perfectly willing not to use the term (which, prior to this, I used perhaps twice in umpteen years) when talking with Ophelia or anyone else who disapproves. That was never the issue. I’m actually a courteous guy by nature. It’s the apparent non-reciprocal aspect, touched on by Paul earlier, that intrigues. And, as I said, the fact that women are seemingly free to use sexual references, however pejorative, while men may not, regardless of their actual motives. And it’s the projection of someone else’s baggage, someone else’s intent – I think that’s what makes the subject prickly (and this thread so long).
“I still want to hear why you think my analogies are question-begging or otherwise inapt.”
Well, the “nigger” example is particularly charged and I don’t know anyone who would use the word or be comfortable hearing it; whereas the “such a pussy” reference was, obviously, much more ambiguous and open to innocent usage.
“I also completely agree with you regarding ‘prick’ and ‘dick’ – no need for them, for similar reasons.”
But there is a need for them, isn’t there? Much as there’s a need for the word “bitch.” As someone pointed out earlier, there *are* dicks and bitches in the world and it’s quite right that we have words to denounce their dickery and bitchery. My own infrequent use of those terms doesn’t imply some sweeping dismissal of all men and all women, and no-one I know would assume that it does.