At least we are according to the aesthetes behind Swansea’s taxpayer-funded art festival Art Across the City, which improves the locals with things like this, and specifically conceptual artist Jeremy Deller, whose work, above, is sited in a car park behind a shopping centre. The press release for this mighty piece tells us, “Deller’s plaintive request gets straight to the point. Everybody and everywhere could do with more poetry.” Likewise, presumably, “everybody” could “do with” more conceptual art too.
And yet despite claims, chiefly by poets, that more poetry is needed and that the unwashed could “do with” more of it, books of modern poetry rarely make the bestseller lists. The New York Times famously estimated the total US market for modern poetry books as being roughly 2,000 people, the measure of a rare “bestseller.” How many of these 2,000 buyers are themselves poets is, alas, unclear. Closer to home, the Arts Council acknowledged that modern poetry constitutes barely four per cent of the total sales of poetry books, with sales in excess of 200 copies being generally considered “excellent.”
Swansea’s taxpayer-funded art festival Art Across the City, which improves the locals with things like this,
Oh dear. Can the taxpayers have a refund?
Oh dear. Can the taxpayers have a refund?
The creator of that, um, object is Matthew Houlding. It’s titled, rather poetically, The Walk Around The Bay Took Us To A Secluded Beach With Basic Bungalows Right On The Beach. Apparently Mr Houlding’s sculptures and collages “draw us into a fantastic, retro-futuristic world, inspired by architectural forms and models, modernism and a childhood spent in East Africa.” Though to my eyes he seems to have made a sculpture – sorry, a “free-standing spatial construction” – that’s not at all attractive when viewed from any angle. Which is an achievement, I suppose.
If you take a look through the festival website, you actually have to marvel at how little discernible talent there is on show. It’s quite striking. I mean, was artistic ability bred out of the locals entirely? Was there some terrible accident involving atomic radiation? Or has the local Council, like so many others, spent years favouring inane drek over more pleasing objects and images?
Poetry is not needed. It is never needed.
Some of it is wanted, but none of it is needed. Most of it is not fit for public consumption.
Well I’m convinced.
“There was a young Artist called Deller.
A reasonable sort of a fella’,
Who said that he thought,
The taxpayers ought,
To be forced on pain of imprisonment to hand over their cash to him and his chums.”
‘Cause poetry doesn’t have to rhyme see?
‘More poetry is needed’.
There’s poetry, and there’s poetry. There’s Shakespeare’s sonnets, and then there’s Benjamin Zepaniah.
“There was a young Artist called Deller.
A reasonable sort of a fella’,
Who said that he thought,
The taxpayers ought,
To be forced on pain of imprisonment to hand over their cash to him and his chums.”
Fetch cake for that man.
The agentless, passive phrasing of Mr Deller’s billboard does seem a little evasive. Though, as you point out, it implies the casual sense of entitlement we’ve come to expect from our publicly subsidised ‘artist’ class. Those self-appointed “labourers of the soul.”
The Poetry Society describes the UK market for modern poetry as “tiny,” by which they mean less than the readership of one small blog. The poet and publisher Billy Mills recently admitted to Guardian readers that, “poetry publishing is not… commercially viable.” Apparently very few people are willing to volunteer their money for books of modern verse. Nevertheless, Art Across the City – which is also commercially unviable and is bankrolled by the Arts Council of Wales, the City and County of Swansea, and the Welsh Government – i.e., bankrolled coercively, by the taxpayer – tells us “more poetry is needed.” By whom, exactly?
I’m told the market for life-size porcelain shoes is also quite small. Clearly, something must be done.
Further to this, sanctimonious lefty, Michael Rosen has decided not to wait to see what new Culture Minister, Sajid Javid, gets up to in his new job. He’s already pronounced him a failure.
http://michaelrosenblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/open-letter-to-sajid-javid-new-culture.html
It’s worth a read. Sometimes he makes meaningless statements such as “Either we think that everyone has the potential to produce art, or we don’t”. The rest of the time he’s merely being supercilious and snide.
Unpleasant little twerp, that Rosen.
Wee, sleekit, cow’rin, tim’rous poet
If only the taxpayer would keep you in Moet!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty
Wi begging billboards!
The government will still surely pay thee
For writing no words!
I may be talking utter uninformed cobblers, but could an argument be made for the need for good poetry, and good art of any genre?
I agree that taxpayer money for such egregious horse-ordure, such as a misassembled Ikea flatpack in the midst of a park or a gigantic billboard proclaiming a fatuous statement, is fraudulent at best.
But should there maybe be some philanthropy toward emerging artists who have a sincere commitment to creating something worthwhile?
I believe that free markets are necessary for a country’s prosperity – but should there not be some civic responsibility to nurture a country’s art? Obviously the problem is that a funding system becomes an intransigent band of facile twerps who produce this sort of bilge.
Dang, I’ve just made a post on the internet to publicly proclaim: “I don’t know, it’s really confusing.”
Today (via the Swansea ‘art’ site) I learn that Swedenborg’s skull was found in Swansea, although he never visited the place while alive. (Unless this is merely a postmodern meme or a Dylan Thomas Pink Skull and I have missed the joke, also carried in the TLS.)
“Either we think that everyone has the potential to produce art, or we don’t”
Is it such a stark dichotomy? Is it not a bit like saying “Either we think that every Aardvark tap-dances on a Tuesday or we don’t” or, possibly, “Either we accept Michael Rosen as our moral authority or we don’t”
There’s a long discussion over at Franklin’s place on the subject of art funding and “our” collective culture. It may be of interest.
@ Horace Dunn
Is it just me, or does anyone else find it slightly sinister that we actually have a ‘Ministry of Culture’?
David – “If you take a look through the festival website, you actually have to marvel at how little discernible talent there is on show.”
http://www.locwsinternational.com/?portfolio=jeremy-millar
“AM I GLAD TO BE HERE!”, said nobody who attended this exhibition.
“The New York Times famously estimated the total US market for modern poetry books as being roughly 2,000 people…the Arts Council acknowledged that modern poetry constitutes barely four per cent of the total sales of poetry books…”
Which suggests, if the US and UK are similar in this respect, that the total US market for poetry books is roughly 2,000 divided by 0.04 or 50,000. A very small market.
Furthermore, it seems that the supply of poetry vastly exceeds its market: Far more poetry is published each year than anyone can read and is willing to purchase with their own money. This is why the vast majority of poetry is published in subsidized journals. And thus the endless hectoring about how we all “need” more poetry. Never mind that most of what is written is, well, to put it kindly, of zero to negative interest, because most poets are not interested in writing verse that ordinary literate people would like to read or listen to. So we must be taxed to support these effete parasites.
Jonathan, you’re clearly not alone.
So, the “artist” thought that the best way to convince people that they ought to be more interested in poetry is not to put some excellent poetry on display (i.e. to demonstrate that poetry can enrich one’s life), but merely to put up a big billboard saying so. Brilliant. Others should take that approach.
“Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.” -> “Less death is needed.”
it seems that the supply of poetry vastly exceeds its market
Which also applies to art and art students. As I said in the discussion at Artblog, linked above, if there are too many artists (or would-be artists) chasing too little demand, and if very few can hope to make even the most basic living as artists, then why use even more public money to entice more people into such a perilous and unpromising line of work, one that typically leads to hardship, frustration and dependency? Why create the illusion of a viable career?
As a standalone thing, supposedly aloof from commercial culture, art no longer has a monopoly on aesthetic provision. In fact, based on visits to my local modish galleries, one might assume that art had all but abandoned that function. Luckily, mere commerce still generates lovely things.
[ Edited. ]
Estimating the poetry market at 2000 consumers undoubtedly ignores the thousands of college students who are forced to purchase volumes of modern poetry for various and sundry humanities requirements. As an alternative, may I suggest this. I’d buy it myself, but I already have a copy, passed on from my father who used to read aloud from it to me at bedtime when I was young.
Oh, and here are five syllables in search of an haiku:
Sit on a kumquat.
“Estimating the poetry market at 2000 consumers undoubtedly ignores the thousands of college students who are forced to purchase volumes of modern poetry for various and sundry humanities requirements.”
That reminds me of something the gay Marxist science fiction writer Samuel R. Delany said: Attempting to refute claims that declining bookstore sales showed that he had become far less popular in recent decades, he pointed to good sales on college campuses. But undoubtedly those sales were nearly all for required reading lists, and have nothing to do with what people read when free to choose. Funny how easy it is to not notice the effects of coercion….
“As an alternative, may I suggest this[A Choice of Kiplings Verse]. I’d buy it myself, but I already have a copy, passed on from my father who used to read aloud from it to me at bedtime when I was young.”
Yes indeed, excellent poems. And what a wonderful father!
not at all attractive when viewed from any angle.
Art Across the City should put that on the website. Trading standards etc.
Was it the passive voice? Oh the irony that The Arteest is no stranger to irony.
Rafi,
Apparently it’s an artwork “in response to the city.” I’m sure the good people of Swansea are chuffed to bits.
I should point out it’s not even the ugliest thing he’s made. There are even more glorious feats of artistry.
I should point out it’s not even the ugliest thing he’s made.
Oh fuck.
Excuse my language.
Excuse my language.
I quite understand. You’ve had a terrible shock.
Poets. What would we do without them?
No, seriously – I’d like to find out.
Poetry wouldn’t be first on my list of things that Swansea needs.
Thy wee-bit billboard, too, in ruin!
Its silly wa’s the bloggers strewin’,
An naethin’, noo tae big a new ane,
Wi’ public stirk!
An’ unemployment’s storms ensuin’,
Nae gainfu’ work!
I vaguely recall Burns worked in a brewery. And if you asked him, he’d probably have told you more beer is needed.
PS — with thanks to Steveageddon for the inspiration.
Back in the ’90s the advertising spaces in NYC subway cars were interspersed with poetry quotations; it was actually good stuff, and intended to spur interest in poetry. But as I recall it about the most “modern” poetry quoted didn’t date to very far beyond mid-century.
I used to think how disappointed any poetry-curious subway rider would be if he ventured to read any of then-current poetry.
To Ma Own Beloved Lassie
(a poem on her 17th birthday)
Lend us a couple of bob till Thursday.
I’m absolutely skint.
But I’m expecting a postal order,
and I can pay you back as soon as it comes.
Love, Ewan
Roses like lips
Violets like sky
Your writing/billboard/random assemblage sucks
Piss off and die/cry/something ending in i, ie, or y . . .
. . . For those who insist that poetry must occur, my other favorite is;
They told me, Francis Hinsley,
They told me you were hung,
With red protruding eye-balls
And black protruding tongue;
I wept as I remembered
How often you and I
Had laughed about Los Angeles,
And now ’tis here you’ll lie;
Pickled in formaldehyde,
Painted like a whore,
Shrimp-pink incorruptible,
Not lost nor gone before.
More poetry is needed in this thread.
You guys just produced more aesthetic value off the cuff than that tosser’s entire omphalorrheic output.
The house takes 10%.
Scratch that. 20%.
Poetry? hmmmmm…
More cowbell ….
I Called You Last Night. A Poem
I called you last night
To see if you were home
I called you last night
I guessed you were not alone
I called you last night
To tell you how
I really felt, but yet
I couldn’t get the words out
I called you last night
I raged and wept
On the telephone
I heard you say those words to me:
” I’m sorry love, you must have the wrong number”
I should point out it’s not even the ugliest thing he’s made. There are even more glorious feats of artistry.
O orange and quite useless chair,
a fit for the set of Double Dare;
Apparently, to hang some junk
from this piece makes it not mere bunk.
This artist missed his calling, for sure,
making awful 70’s furniture.
It looks to be an entertainment center
which would drive away many a renter.
His greatest gift to those that saw
his billboard was: he didn’t draw.
More poetry is needed.
Signed: The Vogons.
They said of red nosed Bozo
“He was the king of clowns”
But now we have this Deller Cat
Who’s better all around
I’d guess he sucks at jesting
It’s not the modern way
But when we look, we point and laugh
That’s all I have to say
When I went down to Swansea
There was a great big mess
They told me it was modern art
I never would have guessed
So when you go to Swansea
Bring a dust bin and a broom
They may not need you right away
But they’re sure to need you soon
And bring a plasma cutter
And a truck to haul the junk
The modern art in Swansea
It smells like it’s a skunk
They’ll tell you it’s not yours to cut
Nor yours to haul away
But who was it who paid for this
Art’s festival today?
“I THINK that I shall never see
A poem lovely as a tree.
A tree whose hungry mouth is prest
Against the sweet earth’s flowing breast”
TRIGGER WARNING! RAPE CULTURE!
Found this via Rachel Lucas and I dare modern poets to come even CLOSE.
NO, I hadn’t seen it before. I majored in SPANISH literature. We did this jive:
See? Green stuff too!
Hmmm… I reckon he should have used comic sans. More ironic.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3F2tAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
The Lawyers Bill on page 93 is fun.
I tried to write poetry once. ”Twas only for the money, though. As I recall it went something like this…
She is like a goddess
The celestial Venus
I long for her lips
…and then writer’s block set in.
…and then writer’s block set in.
“Isaac Asimov had writer’s block once,” fellow science fiction writer Harlan Ellison said, referring to Asimov’s impressive output. “It was the worst ten minutes of his life.”
‘Unpleasant little twerp, that Rosen’.
You will not be surprised to note that he is a supporter of the SWP.
Has anyone asked him his opinions on Comrade Delta?
‘More poetry is needed’.
Yes indeed. We need more men crying:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2602233/The-poems-make-men-cry-Daniel-Radcliffe-Stephen-Fry-join-stars-picking-favourite-sad-verses-anthology.html
T.K. Tortch: “Back in the ’90s the advertising spaces in NYC subway cars were interspersed with poetry quotations; it was actually good stuff, and intended to spur interest in poetry.”
The Tube still does that:
http://www.poetrysociety.org.uk/content/education/potu/
And yet despite claims, chiefly by poets, that more poetry is needed and that the unwashed could “do with” more of it, books of modern poetry rarely make the bestseller lists.
Top-down thinking. People should like what *I say* they should like.
Top-down thinking. People should like what *I say* they should like.
Well, quite. Which underlines the overlap between our artistic betters and our leftist betters. If only we’d do as they say, and like what they say we should like, the world would be so much tidier and more fragrant. And when I say the world I of course mean their world. For some reason it reminded me of the boardroom scene from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life: “People aren’t wearing enough hats.”
What caught my eye was how, despite the billboard being retweeted umpteen times, generally with a grunt of agreement, only one person had apparently seen anything odd or contentious about it. And that tweeter’s attempt at correction was, “No. More readers of poetry are needed.” Which itself makes much the same assumption. It’s “More life-size porcelain shoes are needed. People should be buying more life-size porcelain shoes.” Versus, “No, more buyers of life-size porcelain shoes are needed. Why aren’t more people buying these life-size porcelain shoes?”
“People aren’t wearing enough hats.”
Snork.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine is that Jeremy Deller represents pretty much everything wrong with contemporary fine art (or ‘fine’ art for those who prefer the scare quotes to be in place): heavy on theory and politics, light on aesthetics of almost any kind, it seems as it it’s been designed to be written about by writers who will use it to bang already well-worn drums.
The best thing I can find to say about Deller’s ‘works’ is that whenever you get past the superficial and adulatory ‘criticism’ in the art press and you find that it is full of all manner of unintended ironies. For example, it’s claimed that Deller’s art presents a challenge to the artworld (a challenge never really specified incidentally) and that as most of his ‘works’ are collaborations with ‘(the) people’ they are not ego-centric(!).
That’s pretty hard to swallow when in fact probably his most famous piece to date, ‘The Battle of Orgreaves’ (2001) – a filmed reenactment of a violent confrontation between striking miners and riot police back in 1984 – was funded through Channel 4 and the Arts Council (through the A4E scheme, itself funded by the National Lottery).
Deller may have had the initial idea but the reenactment was researched, organized and directed by Howard Giles, a professional battle reenactment director from a company called EventPlan which was then filmed by Mike Figgis.
It’s nice to know, then, that when the not-at-all egocentric artist Dellar accepted the Turner prize award of £20,000 he does not appear to have mentioned the roles of either Giles or Figgis at all, but according to the Grauniad said that: ‘being nominated for the Turner prize had been “a not unenjoyable experience.” [And] dedicated his award to “everyone who cycles, everyone who cycles in London, everyone who looks after wildlife, and the Quaker movement.” No mention of Giles, apparently, whose work it really was.
All that said, I actually found the cut-out coloured-in birds in the trees pleasingly surreal but in any event, I have some questions:
Does anyone know of any polity anywhere (or anywhen) that has never used public funds to fund public works of art, communal open air concerts etc.?
Do any readers here feel that part of a city council’s responsibility is to ‘sell’ their city to outside investors and/or to tourists?
Does anyone believe that public artworks lead to increased tourism? Does anyone believe that creating a ‘brand’ for a city, say through an iconic/unusual building or striking public artwork(s), is likely to help advertise the city to business and attract companies and employment to the city?
And if that really is the case – which is often claimed (though not as often supported that I can see) – is that not a sensible form of investment by the governing council?
Nikw211
There’s a problem with the ‘attracts tourists and business’ argument in favour of public art, well several actually but one will do for now. That is that it’s questionable whether the overall economic benefit of tourism or business in one specific place rather than another is actually of any net benefit to the total economy. Does any value get added or is it just a shuffling around of the money ?
It’s also amusing to watch the very people who are so adamant that art is a good thing in itself and should not be sullied by the vulgar requirements of commerce using the economic benefit line when it suits them. As with so many leftist arguments there is neither consistency or honesty from the subsidised arts lobby.
“But should there maybe be some philanthropy toward emerging artists who have a sincere commitment to creating something worthwhile? ”
Possibly, indeed. But from the coffers of philanthropists, who may then bask, Saatchi-like in the abuse heaped upon them by the venomous toads they have funded.
Not from public funds.
There’s a lot of successful poetry out there as it is.
It’s called song lyrics.
It’s called song lyrics.
I was thinking that just today.
Country music and Rap having the most poignant.
On this lonely road, trying to make it home
Doing it by my lonesome-pissed off, who wants some
I’m fighting for my soul, God get at your boy
You try to bogart — fall back, I go hard
On this lonely road, trying to make it home
Doing it by my lonesome-pissed off, who wants some
I see them long hard times to come
ἐπάμεροι: τί δέ τις;
τί δ᾽ οὔ τις; σκιᾶς ὄναρ
ἄνθρωπος. ἀλλ᾽ ὅταν αἴγλα διόσδοτος ἔλθῃ,
λαμπρὸν φέγγος ἔπεστιν ἀνδρῶν καὶ μείλιχος αἰών
Whenever some clown tells me that great art is the preserve of the left, I mention Pindar, secure in the knowledge that they won’t have read any.
It’s called song lyrics.
Indeed, just listen as MC 900 Jesus sets the scene:
It ought also be noted that often, the municipalities or councils or what have you, which are doing the funding and the grant-giving, also tend to make it extremely difficult to do ‘art-things’ outside their sanction. I lived in Vancouver for a while, a city with a reputation on the rest of the continent as a congenial home for artists and their strange experiments. However, I’ve never experienced a city with such a wide divide between the official attitude toward art and music, and the on-the-ground reality. A regime of endless permits, licenses, zoning law, petty ticketing, and all watched over by neighbourhood associations of statist tastes.
I once helped at an art show put on by a friend, in a ground-floor space of an unfinished tower. We paid the rent for the show by selling wine and beer from a makeshift bar, but we had to keep it behind a stairwell so that it wasn’t visible from the street – we didn’t have a license, which would have been impossible to get, given that the building was not finished, or even zoned for art. (We also kept the back door propped open, so that if the police got wind of unauthorized liquor sales, we could book it down the alleyway.) Exciting as art-show banditry might be, this sort of stuff puts the crimp on all manner of legitimate ways of funding art and of finding affordable ways to create and exhibit it.
The worst conditions were for musicians – the city, issuer of licenses, had caved continually to pressures put on it by neighbours and by incumbent bars and venues, and had essentially ceased to issue new liquor permits to venues where one was permitted by law to dance. Of course, this meant the emergence of an aristocracy of bar owners with licenses, enabled to charge ever higher cuts of performers’ ticket sales. And of course, a thriving grey market in old liquor + music licenses, reaching into the hundreds of thousands of dollars for a forty-seat bar.
And then the city would proceed to promote and subsidize open-air concerts and musical events during “tourist season” – but only musicians approved of by the city government, you see.
I don’t know how much intention goes into it, but it has the makings of an excellent little strategy. Step one, make it legally nightmarish to make art pay for itself, or to make it in cheap, marginal places. Step two, moan ostentatiously about the shortage of art in the city. Step three, disperse tax money to artists deemed worthy of public display.
That reminds me of something the gay Marxist science fiction writer Samuel R. Delany said: Attempting to refute claims that declining bookstore sales showed that he had become far less popular in recent decades, he pointed to good sales on college campuses. But undoubtedly those sales were nearly all for required reading lists, and have nothing to do with what people read when free to choose. Funny how easy it is to not notice the effects of coercion….
Quite. The only real exposure I had to Delany was through a college course, where I was required to buy his books as course texts. Otherwise I’ve largely ignored his existence.
Thornavis
it’s questionable whether the overall economic benefit of tourism or business in one specific place rather than another is actually of any net benefit to the total economy.
After some superficial digging around in the Internet, I’ve come across this EU report which includes this line about the impact of being designated a European City of Culture (ECoC):
There is limited evidence of long-term benefits (understood as effects that can be clearly linked to the ECoC hosting process more than a year after the event has officially come to an end) and a significant absence of evidence of direct effects more than three years after the event.
They’re not saying the benefits don’t exist, just that no one’s been able to say one way or another. Liverpool apparently had something like a 30-40% increase in tourism during that year (2008), but there’s scant information on whether that was sustained. Based on a visit there I made last year I’d be surprised to learn that the city’s hotels are ever more than half full at any one time, if even that.
Liverpool also apparently raised most of its ECoC funding through public-private financing which as far as I can tell seems to be the local council’s version of taking money from one of those pay day loan companies but knowing full well in advance that they won’t be paying the debt off in a week’s time or whatever, but racking up the interest over years and years.
Liverpool does look incredible now but I’d be surprised to discover that the city’s doing anything other bobbing around like a paper boat on an ocean of debts.
Aplofar
It ought also be noted that often, the municipalities or councils or what have you, which are doing the funding and the grant-giving, also tend to make it extremely difficult to do ‘art-things’ outside their sanction.
Well, yes, there is that side of it too!
“People aren’t wearing enough hats.”
Great blog, sir. Lost the afternoon in it. Consider your tip jar hit.
That “device” should have one of those cushioning mats fitted around it so it could at least be useful as a sort of climb-on toy for children. Thought o be fair it doesn’t really look strong enough and is rather too ugly to boot.
Delaney, “The Einstein Intersection” is tolerable for 40 year old SF, but what the hell else did he write that’s worth studying at University ?
Speaking of tip jars, I hit it recently. And not only in appreciation of our host, but also the inimitable brilliance of Steve 2.
Swansea brings only one word to mind: RELEGATION!
Yes, song lyrics are one example of art being created outside the purview of arts councils and panhandling ‘poets’. In the visual arts, it’s under-appreciated the skill that goes into making user interfaces for consumer electronics both aesthetically pleasing and functional. There’s more genuine creativity in a well-crafted advertising campaign than this chump Deller will ever produce.
In the visual arts, it’s under-appreciated the skill that goes into making user interfaces for consumer electronics both aesthetically pleasing and functional.
Also locations in video games have often been designed with considerable aesthetic skill, though I’m not up on current generation games.
In the visual arts, it’s under-appreciated the skill that goes into making user interfaces for consumer electronics both aesthetically pleasing and functional.
Absolutely. I’ve said before, the interface of my smartphone, a mass-produced and ubiquitous object, shows a certain discernment on the part of the people who designed it. It does what it does in a visually pleasing way and still tickles me. It’s not a huge rush of aesthetic wonder, but it’s a small pleasure, available every day. The people who designed it weren’t trying to “challenge” or “transgress” the customer. They weren’t fretting about how radical or intellectual we’d think they are. They were trying to make us smile, or play, or just drool with desire. Which is no small feat, really. And such pleasures, even small pleasures, are quite hard to find in many modern galleries, where evidence of discernment is much less obvious, presumably because the artists in favour often regard beauty and sensory pleasure as something to “interrogate” and “problematize,” and, at best, peripheral to their egos.
Thankfully, we, the public, no longer rely on people who call themselves “artists” to make visually pleasing things.
Doing a review of general video Stuff reminded me of Henry Gibson, and, of course, John Wayne.