The Roar of Enlightened Manhood
A troubled student writes:
As a proud male feminist,
Oh, go on. Guess where.
As a proud male feminist, I believe it’s important for men to rally around the feminist movement to provide support and to act as an example for other men to follow. So it confuses me that at university a shockingly large number of male students I speak to refuse to apply the term to themselves, instead being evasive and avoiding such an empowering title.
Yes, dear readers, it’s both shocking and confusing that in the twenty-first century, in one of the most cosseting and politically corrected environments in all of the developed world, some male students feel no need to describe themselves as feminists. And calling oneself a feminist, announcing it proudly to the world – or at least to other, likeminded, equally proud students – is apparently the duty of all righteous beings, especially those with testicles. It’s empowering, you see. And never a sign of narcissism, credulity and pretentious moral grandstanding.
The scandalised and bewildered author of this piece is Mr Lewis Merryweather, a first year student of comparative literature at the University of Warwick. “He is a proud feminist,” reads his Guardian profile, “and writes poetry.” And the sorrows of his life are there for all to see:
I often encounter negative reactions when declaring myself a male feminist at university.
Missionary work is hard. Bring handkerchiefs, quickly, a dozen at least. And possibly towels and a mop.
I find this attitude among male students worrying… Perhaps it stems from male panic, that, foolishly, male students worry they may lose power and opportunity in a world of feminism. Perhaps guy students are embarrassed to align themselves with a word that lexically alludes to female-centrism.
Yes, that must be it. Those lexical allusions are a real bugger.
Maybe they’re worried about feeling emasculated.
Says our fretful poet. A man agonised by the existence of peers who don’t think exactly as he does and won’t wear his badge. And to make matters worse, there’s the ever-present shadow of hegemonic oppression:
In the words of Colm Dempsy, a male feminist who spoke at the forum I attended: “I am a proud male feminist. I am willing to fight with you. If you let me.” This is a statement every man, inside university and outside, should be able to shout without fear of being silenced by society.
Silenced by society. In a national newspaper.
Of course the reason for the annoying non-compliance of other male students is all too obvious:
I think the main reason so few male students identify as feminists is because of the spreading virus of lad culture at university. Lad culture is the idea that overt acts of masculinity prove some form of superiority over others. The reality is that lad culture is a prominent part of university life. Club nights often encourage the sexualisation and degradation of women through dress code, and lad values tell male students it’s important to get drunk, pull women and act like a noteworthy lad.
Heavens, it’s a virus, and on campuses too. And this gendered beastliness, in which women apparently have no autonomy at all, even in matters of fashion, weighs upon the breast of all right-thinking people. Or rather, left-thinking people – the ones who will save us from ourselves and usher into existence a brighter, fluffier world – if only we’d do as they say.
It’s hardly laddish to try and deconstruct a patriarchal system. Lad culture at university makes many potential male feminists feel demeaned; it can be hard to fit in if you don’t keep up with “the lads.”
Well, yes, I suppose “lexically alluding to female-centrism” and unironic “empowerment” – while mouthing an intent to “deconstruct a patriarchal system” – that will signal something to those less priggish and credulous. But perhaps those men and women who don’t want an Official Feminist Hat And Authorised Mental Mechandise™ aren’t being “silenced” by a “virus” of “lad culture,” or by a need to crush womankind underfoot. Some, for instance, may find such ostentatious signalling a tad self-serving, and have little appetite for purity tests and competitive scolding. Others may take issue with Mr Merryweather’s assertion that “feminism simply means you believe in equality.” Perhaps some are wary of a term that is often associated with things like this, and this, and this, and with ludicrous pseudo-scholarship, in which reality is an obstacle to the chosen narrative.
And maybe some are wary of joining a club whose members include such fragile, indignant souls as Mr Lewis Merryweather, of which there are so many, and whose baggage is often fascinating.
Via BenSix.
Steve,
My general comment about the tone of the debate… was addressed to you as host / chairman.
I take a fairly hands-off approach to comments. If I took issue with every overly broad comment or detail I don’t agree with, I’d never get anything done. I’m happy for readers to take these things up with each other.
I knew he would have a shit beard even before I saw his picture. I KNEW IT.
This is the 21st century. They have cures for that now.
h/t Insty
“I agree. All the more reason to either re-label the haradons or find another description for those of us that believe in actual equality”
‘Actual equality’ is itself a bit tricky, though, isn’t it? There are major philosophical problems with what ‘equality’ is and how it relates to ‘fairness’. If equality means just ‘equality of opportunity in job applications’, then that’s nice, but then you’ll only have fairness in one area. There will still be more homeless men and male suicides, more men than women unable to build a really good relationship with their children (at multiple stages of the child’s life), the list goes on a bit. So that can’t be all there is to it.
Another issue no one thinks about, but actually quite important: what about the fact that a man doesn’t really care if a woman pinches his bottom. This is hardly reciprocated, you’ll agree, with the amount of fuss being made about DLT possibly doing so 40 years ago, for goodness sake! If you gave men equal rights to complain about all similar issues (which they currently don’t) they just wouldn’t care, or consider calling the police 99% of the time. Equality wouldn’t be fairness, rather importantly.
There are likewise whole areas of social rules that apply differently to the sexes – very real and far more complex than feminism’s simplistic political waffle about ‘gender stereotypes’. We couldn’t and shouldn’t legislate for them, but there’d still be inequalities. David mentions that equality of opportunity and 1:1 parity in all areas are very different concepts.
Is equality in only some of these areas true equality? Surely not. The whole idea falls apart the momentyou start thinking about it. It’s quite useless in rational debate.
Yet the word is thrown about with abandon, oddly, because I hope I’ve shown that there is no clear agreement on what is meant by it. People, and particularly feminists seem to avoid discussion of these issues – with only rare (and even more rarely adequate) exceptions.
They prefer to use the word vaguely to win the argument, or to scare or anger people to join their cause. They’re about as dishonest with language as any politician. You know Orwell’s quote on political language?
Henry,
See my first comment “…In that I wish for equal treatment and equal opportunities for my wife & daughter and expect them to be judged by their abilities rather than by their gender, I am a proud ‘feminist’…”. Any talk of quotas was introduced by others.
I agree ‘equality’ is a complex issue, that’s why I think that loose labelling and generalizations of people who might be entirely reasonable is unhelpful. The lazy lobbing around of insults which, as an avowed ‘feminist’ lumps my wife in with all the she-devils of the left is just absurd and, as I stated above, just what the left does to shut people up.
If you rail against ‘feminism’ per-se then you are in actuality throwing the baby out with the bath water. I don’t want people resenting my daughter, who equally loves girly dressing-up and ‘boys’ toys like Lego, radio-controlled vehicles and spy gear, just because of some of the BS spouted by the likes of LP and my bra-burning mother-in-law.
Have you run into people who criticize tomboys because modern feminists are such absurd harridans? We’re at the point where Equality Feminism is the default position in the Western world. Nobody uses the terms “lady doctor” or “lady lawyer” or “lady cop” as they did when women in those professions were rare.
IOW, we don’t need a term for equality feminists, because there’s no anti-feminist sentiment for it to stand in opposition to.*
If the moral authority and caché of the term “feminist” has been irretrievably degraded, lay the blame solely at the feet of the current crop of ostentatious pearl-clutching, smug, sanctimonious, irrational feminists that David rightly mocks.
*And there’s Islam, whose misogyny must be vigorously denounced; we can use a term other than “feminist” to identify opposition to such misogyny. Maybe borrow something from Arabic that means “screw you, male chauvinist pig, and the goat you rode in on.” That’ll make ’em crazy.
Daaaaaaammn . . . .
David; Have any previous discussions spilled over onto a second page, or is this the first?
My general comment about the tone of the debate and the apparently casual labelling of all feminists as raving lunatics…
Complaining about tone is usually not warranted in blog comment section, especially a blog where there’s an established core of regulars in addition to casual lurkers and occasional drop-ins. Blog-specific schtick is best accepted in the spirit intended instead of applying external standards of taste and decorum.
Further, objections to “tone” sound to me like the hapless guy with Asperger Syndrome who struggles to interpret sarcasm and figures of speech; he hotly denounces the literal meaning instead of asking for an explanation.
Which, when given, may still be misunderstood.
Have any previous discussions spilled over onto a second page, or is this the first?
It’s happened before, maybe half a dozen times. This mammoth thread on male and female “privilege” was one of the first. Some of that thread may even be relevant.
[ Edited. ]
David,
(Not for the first time) I’m confused. In that I wish for equal treatment and equal opportunities for my wife & daughter and expect them to be judged by their abilities rather than by their gender,
Steven, and others;
I think an issue is of explaining processes vs instances, describing something occurring over time, rather than That One, This One, The Other.
At the source of my paycheck, where I’m a professional analyst and explainer, we don’t do technical Stuff, but a lot of our clients have to do technical Stuff as a part of why they come to us. On a regular basis I get asked about the TechnicalSource company, and does my paycheck source do the overall process of TechnicalSource ParticularLabel.
My answer to my clients is that Oh, My, as we’ve all noticed, doesn’t TechnicalSource just keep shuffling the cards about with its products, and there’s no bloody way that I or my paycheck source are going to keep up with all that shuffling. Therefore, nevermind which of several examples of ParticularLabel is being cited, and let’s all focus on the more important bit of what TechnicalSource actually does regarding my paycheck source, thus allowing the client to make decisions based on the actual action at one time of TechnicalSource and don’t bother trying to notice what TechnicalSource is calling some wozzer this week.
Doing that nails down the process, and nevermind the applied label of the moment. Now as far as general labels, particularly when they’re focusing on instances and get called stereotypes, that’s a different issue.
As we’ve noted in this discussion, a recurring spasm with hipsters is the inability to try to figure out whether to grow a beard or not, combined with the expectation that everyone else shares in the fantasy that the hipster might someday get mistaken for looking like someone of quality, with testosterone and style and being the recipient of admiration. Out in reality, such surreality gets called the bathub ring, comb under, shit beard.
In another instance of deliberately misleading label and meaning, earlier versions of hipsters, back when they could scam apparently cheap credit and be called yuppys, started being fixated on the extremely tacky and tasteless and very revealing “upscale”, in that by being “upscale” the hipster might someday get mistaken for looking like someone of quality, with testosterone—if male—and style and being the recipient of admiration. Out in reality, where adults emphatically do not claim or seek to be “upscale”, there is a term for solid, elegant, reliable, tasteful, reputable, been working for centuries and still does, elegant, a proof from the book, we don’t care who you are, we don’t care what your background or gender or sexual practice is, we care that you have a clue, and demonstrate having that clue, and join us in practicing having that clue, and barring some other label to use, that term is quality.
All I have ever seen of upscale assures me to go the other way when it turns up, as all that happens in all instances of “upscale” is tasteless, tacky, grasping, frantic, ostentatiously shiny, shallow, insistently demanding approval for some label that only surfaced some moments ago, glitzy, petulant, guaranteed by definition to fail all claims of any positive or useful or helpful promise or result.
Soooo . . . as Dicentra has noted, We’re at the point where Equality Feminism is the default position in the Western world. Nobody uses the terms “lady doctor” or “lady lawyer” or “lady cop” as they did when women in those professions were rare. And in the same sort of practice area are Marines—The University of Science, Music, and Culture, or Uncle Sam’s Motorcycle Club in this instance—where in the Marines, one is A Marine. . . . . and one just happens by circumstance to be Reserve, or, female, or some combination. As far as what one does in the Marines, that’s what the MOS is for, in general. And in specific instances, Every Marine Is A Rifle . . . .
Therefore, to ascertain what one does as a practice over time, nevermind the label to describe some practice that is often shifting about, Ask and do what is done in the moment, and then the next moment, and then the next moment . . . .
Steve: “By that logic, given that the left seems to genuinely believe that this country, especially UKIP and the Tory party, is over-run with racists, you must think it is OK for them to scream ‘Nazi’ at everyone who, like me, thinks that there has been a bit too much immigration lately.”
That is an interesting leap of logic. Nobody else brought up your opinions on immigration, and nobody else brought up Nazis. The fact is, your arguments are entirely emotional. It boils down to “if x were true, I would be sad. Therefore x is not true.”
I feel like God must have felt when Abraham tried to persuade him to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if he could find ten righteous men there. If reasonable feminists exist, surely the movement can’t be all bad? But. I have explained what I think of feminism as a movement, and which feminists I am judging that opinion on. If you want to completely ignore everything I’ve written and dismiss it as “blanket defamation”, then I see no reason to repeat myself.
Steve,
I don’t think the definition you gave clears up the issues I raised. It’s still very vague. What is ‘equal treatment’? As I said I don’t think men and women have the same issues, so addressing one (carefully selected) issue for everyone may be very good for one sex and useless for the other. You could apply the same rule across the board but end up helping just one sex. Sort of equal but not very fair
Now when feminists use the word ‘equality’ they do seem to mean more than just career opportunities, though with perhaps a different idea for every person using the term..
If we can’t clearly say what sort of equality feminism should stand for, if there’s nothing else feminists have in common: then all that’s left is the goal of getting more for women and less for men.
It dresses this up with noble words like “equality” and scare words like “oppression”, but as I say those are politician’s words. Indeed the language and argument I see from feminism is nearly always obfuscatory.
We’ve arrived at the idea that feminism is little more than doing men down and telling them to like it. Seen this way it’s little wonder if I’m critical of it.
Sure, avoid insults and labels – people I’ve loved have subscribed to this ideology, but I still think it is pernicious.
Patrick,
You have, I suspect deliberately, totally mis-interpreted my comment. The reference I gave, the substance of which was unimportant, and as I’m fairly sure you know very well, was merely meant to illustrate the absurdity of labelling everybody with the traits of extremists. The example I gave was that of the lefts habit of calling those who have concerns about excessive immigration racists. That seems easy to comprehend. I’ve no idea where you think all that ’emotion’ enters in to it.
I do find it troublesome (not the ’emotional sort of troublesome of your bizarre imagining, but the ‘doesn’t sound quite right’ sort of troublesome that makes me want to type something) when general abuse is lavished on a concept which is, at it’s core, somewhat noble, hence my suggestion that the extremists should be called out as extremists. Your conclusion that this somehow amounts to “if x were true, I would be sad. Therefore x is not true.” is beyond my comprehension. For a start I don’t think I stated that anything was not true, I merely suggested that the target of the comments, most of which have some validity, seemed rather broad.
Your earlier comment about most feminists hating men demonstrates the importance of defining the term. I’m pretty certain that every woman I know, most of whom are highly educated professional types would describe themselves as some sort of feminist. To my knowledge none of them hates men. Clearly the feminists of which you speak are of a particular type. It seems to me that it would do no harm to say so.
I’m glad you feel like God. That must be nice for you.
Steve: I probably should’ve followed every statement of mine with “But not all feminists are like that.”
You know… if it is unfair for us to make generalized statements about feminism, then it is also unfair for us to say generalized PRAISE about feminism. Unless you want to take the position that generalized praise is okay while generalized criticism is not.
Dicentra,
“…Have you run into people who criticize tomboys because modern feminists are such absurd harridans?…”
I’m not sure why you are asking that. I referred to my daughter because I like the fact that she has the confidence, even at 7 years old, to like what she likes with no consideration for peer pressure or gender norms. It seems that might, in certain circles, be viewed as a somewhat ‘feminist’ trait. I do, however know plenty of men, particularly on my building sites, who will shout ‘Lezza’ at any woman wearing un-conventional attire. Does that count?
“…Nobody uses the terms “lady doctor” or “lady lawyer” or “lady cop” as they did when women in those professions were rare…”
Actually many people still do, entirely accurately, refer to policewomen but you are probably mostly right; I think my wife would punch me in the tenders if I called her a ‘lady lawyer’. I may be old-fashioned but I do find it absurd when actresses express resentment at the feminisation of their work title and insist that they are actually actors, even whilst accepting their ‘best actress’ awards. I just can’t see the harm in feminine nouns.
“…IOW, we don’t need a term for equality feminists, because there’s no anti-feminist sentiment for it to stand in opposition to…”
I would invite you to come to one of my building sites, or spend a night out with some of my West Country mates and see if that opinion still stands.
“…Complaining about tone is usually not warranted in blog comment section…”
I had no idea. Thanks for the education. And thanks for the accusation of aspergers, my lady lawyer wife may well agree.
Except “mainstream, moderate” feminism is not particularly interested in disowning the “extremists” who “hijacked it”–they’re far more interested in disowning women like Camille Paglia who criticize those extremists.
Also, when you say “in the present day experience of many women,” for whom are you speaking? I experience exactly 0 of the oppression I’m told repeatedly I labor under all the time by feminists, and I’m a woman with a degree in STEM.
Having an Addams Family Values moment here…. clearly Steve 2: Steveageddon is a lot funnier than Steve. And @dicentra I am a casual lurker, I am in my comfy fake leather swivel chair wearing only a smoking jacket and pince nez.
Ah, David—and all–:
In the words of Prime Minister Perkins, I have a wee moan . . .
David, you state that Writing in Salon, Cintra Wilson said of Palin, “she ain’t no woman,” before describing her sneeringly as “fuckable” and “a hardcore pornographic centrefold.”
My immediate reaction when I finally noticed that statement was, basically: Oy, no, Cintra, did you really state that?!?!?!?!?!!!
And actually, no, David, you or your source are wrong, that is not what Cintra stated.
With a quick bit of Googlemancy, I find Sarah Palin may be a lady, but she ain’t no woman. , which somewhat resembles the words, but rather does deliver rather a different meaning . . .
I did a read through Cintra’s essay, where what I see is What this Republican blowup doll does with her own insides in accord with her own faith is her business. But, like the worst and most terrifying of religious extremists, she seems very comfortable with the idea of imposing her own views on everyone else. . . . which I read as being exactly the sort of argument that is regularly made here in this venue, and by Cintra in her essay, regarding La Penny, Et Al . . . .
In short, Cintra actually is one of ours.
I’m not going to comment on any of the other names you cited given that, contrasting with Cintra, I don’t know ’em. And that is quite literal.
Cintra and I haven’t been in touch for quite a few years following when we were at Uni together. A regular shared hangout was the office of our occasional advisor, the late Kip Bacom. At one point she was putting together some class related project and wanted me doing something with it, but at that point at school I was totally swamped in much else and didn’t have the spare resources.
And, in parallel, noting Harry Perkins, the issue there is again what is perceived vs what is. I disagree with the Very British Coup Wiki article where it states The final sequence, on the morning of the election, is deliberately ambiguous, but implies that a military coup has begun. because actually there is nothing of the sort . . . the Ray McAnally edition very clearly has totally benign radio announcements of nothing more unusual than—paraphrasing from memory— . . . consultation with Buckingham Palace regarding the constitutional crisis . . . because the “crisis” is that after the PM has been accused of corruption, it is the PM himself who calls for the very emphatic investigation and hearing regarding his alleged corruption, at the same time that he also dissolves Parliament and calls for exactly the sort of election that he could lose if he has lost the public trust . . . .
So as we keep arguing all along, there’s really no point in anyone waving labels around in the hopes that one or all will be impressed. Bring us the facts so that we may deliberate for ourselves. No one saves us but ourselves, no one can and no one may.
I’ve tried to find a source for Benjamin Disraeli as the author of The principle of . . . democracy is that all government exists solely for the good of the governed . . . It is democratic because the welfare of the people is its supreme end . . . but in the same manner of nailing down the actual statements, everything keeps pointing to Disraeli’s long time associate John Eldon Gorst . . . .
My boy is aspergers, but not high-functioning like steve here; he would never get a degree, even an arts degree…. but yeah, steve does come across a bit. No offence intended Steve
Hal, nice research, but hey man, Ive met feminists who have denied that Margaret Thatcher was a woman. Are these outliers? Not back in the 80s it wasn’t.
Look we’re looking at fascism here: it’s Us against Them. It’s how it works… and the feminists are Us, which makes us males, Them. All is needed is a Narrative… and once you build the Narrative you have a black/white situation where all women are oppressed by Them. Aye, right.
Steve: I want your daughter to be free to be herself, but then I’m a libertarian type. What would you do if you had a son?
Oh, okay, so calling someone a “blow-up doll” is less objectionable than calling them a Playboy centerfold. Gotcha.
Or to be less snide, I think the objection’s more one of tone, not of content. A certain set of feminist writers demonize women they object to by using exceedingly vile analogies and declaring them “not women”. I don’t see how calling her a blow-up doll isn’t doing that.
Further Cintra’s still got the burden of proof as to whether or not Palin’s actual desires (as opposed to desires the entire left-wing feminist opposition ascribed to her) actually amount to “imposing her will on everyone else”. Our host has provided ample evidence of that in the people he criticizes via statements they’ve actually made.
Oh, between ftumch and Ive met feminists who have denied that Margaret Thatcher was a woman. and Pellegri with A certain set of feminist writers demonize women they object to by using exceedingly vile analogies and declaring them “not women”, Oh, yes, I quite agree that there’re rather a lot of idiots out there . . . . and Yes, David does provide an excellent platform that regularly points to InsertLoudNoiseOfTheMoment, where David regularly does an excellent job of allowing InsertLoudNoiseOfTheMoment to use InsertLoudNoiseOfTheMoment’s own words and action to merrily shove both feet into the mouth up to the knees. And again, where the usual form is to point to the actual statement that was made or the action performed, in extreme cases that remind me of people I’ve had to deal with in person, we occasionally even see InsertLoudNoiseOfTheMoment managing to shove the feet in while the head is very firmly and permanently planted up InsertLoudNoiseOfTheMoment’s own ass.
The catch in this case is that of that one person in that list who I happen to have known personally, the statement made of Cintra just did not seem to ring true . . . . and sure enough that was not exactly what she wrote. To say of Palin only that “she ain’t no woman,” would have been rather idiotic, and Cintra is extremely intelligent. Therefore with a statement which was not really the usual attribution that David does, that is why I note to David that he . . . or your source are wrong.
Thank you for the credit for researching, but actually I just dropped terms in and the article popped up immediately.
Now of Palin . . . Oy.
One handiest observation—noting that blow-up doll comment and implications—is to note that the very vehement claim during that election was of Qualified And Commendable Candidate For High Office, One Heartbeat Away, Etc . . . .
. . . and a bit of time, and that election, passed . . .
and then a very telling summation finally occurred.
I’ll state that if there was ever an actual interest in actual quality of government and leadership, the term as governor would have been finished out, would only have been interrupted if she and McCain had won the election . . . .
and then a very telling summation finally occurred.
Given the fact she underwent intense media scrutiny up to and including attacks on her family and the crowdsourcing of her subpoena’d e-mails (which then frustratingly failed to yield any HORRIFYING GOTCHA MOMENTS), I’m kind of not surprised she did resign as governor.
Do you really think anything she did after that point would have been treating with anything approaching rationality or objectivity, not that the media has either?
And even if it were 100% true that she were a completely unqualified blonde ditz (which I highly doubt), is it STILL okay to call her a blow-up doll to make one’s point? If I were to say as much about Amanda Marcotte, and if I had Cintra’s reach, I’d be murdered on Twitter by feminists. Possibly also IRL. …Okay probably not IRL, but still, the level of outraged shrieking would be huge.
Also, even if it 100% proves she’s a blonde ditz, it still doesn’t show Cintra’s original point, which is she wanted to impose her will on others, not that she was dumb.
Egalitarian is still a word isn’t it?
Discussing the label and who is and who should not to be described by it is less interesting than skipping the pigeonholing and just discussing the issues. Ideas are not a team sport so I’m not that concerned about what team someone thinks they’re on.
I’m not sure why you are asking that.
Quick recap.
STEVE:
Stripped to its core, the sentence says, “I don’t want people resenting my daughter because of some of the [feminist] BS.” The bolded term represents an assertion of causality, i.e., conflating extreme feminist behavior with “regular” feminism may cause people to react negatively to a girl who isn’t always girly.
DICENTRA:
I ask if you’ve actually encountered someone whose [potential] attitude toward your daughter has or will be caused by mockery of absurd harridans on this blog and elsewhere.
In other words, I am expressing doubt that your assertion of causality is accurate. It’s a perfectly logical and natural response to your comment.
I like the fact that she has the confidence, even at 7 years old, to like what she likes with no consideration for peer pressure or gender norms.
Here’s a secret the feminists have suppressed: ALL CHILDREN DO THAT. There is not a child on the planet whose behavior is even slightly informed by gender-norm expectations. CHILDREN PLAY AT WHATEVER INTERESTS THEM. They are impervious to the adult expectations that feminists insist have been pushing children into these vile gendered behavior for so long.
Example: My mom was a girly girl growing up. Every Christmas she wanted a new doll. So when I was little, she asked me “What kind of dolly do you want this year?” I had gotten a doll the year before and so I saw no need for another and said so. Her implied expectation had exactly ZERO effect on me. I was more interested in blocks and books than dolls (though I played with dolls, too). I played with dolls only when I felt like it, not because I wanted to conform to expectations.
Turn a bunch of kids loose in a toy store and they’ll gravitate according to what they LIKE, not to what other people think they should like. That kind of vulnerability to peers shaming doesn’t develop until adolescence.
I watched my nephews become fascinated by construction equipment before they could even talk — long before their parents thought that such an interest would develop. Likewise, my nieces would be thrilled to see a doll or a baby beginning at an extremely young age. Their parents wouldn’t have done ANYTHING to encourage it: it just happens.
I do, however know plenty of men, particularly on my building sites, who will shout ‘Lezza’ at any woman wearing un-conventional attire. Does that count?
No. The behavior of construction workers has exactly jack squat to do with feminism, regardless of the flavor of feminism or whether feminism even exists. They wolf-whistle at women they find to be sexy and mock those who don’t turn them on. They’re behaving as pigs because they’re in a pack, playing off each other, and having a grand old time.
It’s who they are; it’s what they do. Lads being lads, in other words. Ten thousand feminists couldn’t stop them if they tried.
And thanks for the accusation of Aspergers.
Asperger’s is an explanation, not an accusation. My nephew is a full-blown Aspie and I’ve got a few of the characteristics myself.
Missing the humorous intent of a comment thread, however, is not one of them.
And @dicentra I am a casual lurker, I am in my comfy fake leather swivel chair wearing only a smoking jacket and pince nez.
Oh, for the love of Pete, put on some PANTS.
if there was ever an actual interest in actual quality of government and leadership, the term as governor would have been finished out
Yet another lie that got around the world several times before the truth got its shoes on.
What Pelligri says did indeed happen, but the proximate cause of her resignation was that she was being pelted incessantly by one nuisance lawsuit after another, all from the same well-funded parties, all of them unfounded so they were ultimately dismissed, but all of them had to be dealt with, USING HER OWN PERSONAL MONEY TO PAY LEGAL FEES, and taking an inordinate amount of time and energy away from her duties as governor.
A full-metal-jacket strategy by her enemies, in other words. The process is the punishment.
We don’t have Loser Pays in the U.S., so anyone with enough funding and enough malice can ruin the target of their opprobrium. Legally. Her family’s bank account was running dry from the legal fees, and there wasn’t Thing One she could do to stop the vile little trolls from filing more and more suits, accusing her of breaking the very ethics laws she fought to pass.
You know what laws those were?
The ones that broke up the little game of footsie that the Republicans in Alaska were playing with Big Oil. She took them on herself and won. That woman has magnificent vision and incredible tenacity.
So she had two options: stay put and go bankrupt defending herself from malicious lawsuits (while neglecting her duties) or put a stop to their shenanigans by quitting.
THEY. DROVE. HER. OUT.
But make sure you give more weight to the idea that she’s a fluff-headed, tacky little snowbilly who wants to Occupy Your Naughty Bits.
Also, “she’s not a real woman” was indeed uttered more than once. Maybe not by your friend, not in that article, but it was sneered from on high by the usual suspects at regular intervals.
Further, Ms. Cintra is most definitely NOT “one of us.” That entire article was saturated with some of the most egregiously vile, degrading, mendacious sewage I’ve read in a long time.
Not a word of it came within shouting distance of accurate, because its purpose was to dehumanize Palin (NO! A REPUBLICAN WOMAN CANNOT GET INTO THE WHITE HOUSE BEFORE HILLARY!) and to signal to the fatuous “sisterhood” that Cintra is as far away from being a Bible-thumpin, cousin-humpin, knuckle-dragging redneck as is humanly possible.
FLASH those gang signs!
Sickening.
Steve: “You have, I suspect deliberately, totally mis-interpreted my comment… Your earlier comment about most feminists hating men”
Offered without comment.
dicentra – that’s interesting about the lawsuits against Palin. That wasn’t reported particularly prominently on this side of the Atlantic, at least that I can remember. The media seemed fixated on a “she’s the female Dan Quayle” narrative, and the feminists seemed fixated on her views on abortion.
[ Wades through beer cans and abandoned shot glasses. ]
Morning all. I’m glad you’ve been busy.
Regarding Palin’s candidacy (and whatever one makes of her politics), the reactions to her from leftists, and noted feminists in particular, were often extraordinary. And, I think, telling. When feminists and self-declared Good Guys suddenly find it okay to mock a woman’s disabled child with jokes about abortion, or to fantasise about seeing this woman gang raped – and this is applauded by an audience of supposedly hip and right-on people – then there’s something odd going on. The veneer of sisterly solidarity is apparently rather thin and very much conditional, and when it cracks apart something quite nasty oozes out. What was interesting at the time was how the ugliness and crudity seemed roughly in proportion with the speaker’s own professions of progressive and feminist piety.
And so quite a few right-on types suddenly found the subject of, say, women being punched perfectly okay, indeed admirable and funny, provided the woman being punched isn’t leftwing. Punching women’s teeth out, gang rape, mockery of disabled children, shitting in women’s mouths, all suddenly okay among the self-defined righteous. For those who want to revisit the surrealism and hypocrisy, a selection of our betters’ best behaviour can be found here. And note that the author of the compilation is hardly a Palin groupie.
[ Edited. ]
A word which is largely missing from this debate on equality is ‘choice’.
I’m female and have had various opportunities which would have made me better paid, more important etc. However they would have also made me busier, more stressed and lacking ‘me’- time, or the time I wanted with my children when young. So I chose what I wanted, rather selfishly imo, as I am undoubtedly happy with my life.
So it rather irks me when ‘feminists’ such as Harman get ratty about the greater numbers of high-flying men in my profession, blame the patriarchy and witter on about quotas, as I’d really prefer them to mind their own business and leave happy people like me alone.
It irks me even more when I hear a new generation of anguished whingers berating ‘lad culture’ as a root of campus evil and either having a go at the men or co-opting them as castrated sidekicks. Because what they define as ‘lad culture’, I see as borish, coarse and crude behaviour, which is displayed just as much by young women as men – a sort of ‘equality’ if you like, but again, entirely down to individual choice. A bit like the uproar some months ago about abusive misogynist tweeting – a cursory Google on those who were protesting the loudest showed that these defiant wimmin were themselves invariably guilty of abusive hostile tweeting.
People do not behave badly because they are male or female or because of ‘society’. They are bad because they choose to be. Merryweather is a rather naive and foolish distraction.
Patrick,
“…Offered without comment…”
Paraphrased, badly, at the end of a long exhausting day.
My apologies.
So, amid the umbrage, surprising, in particular because I initially quetioned the generalization of some comments, without singling anyone out and without disputing the substance of the comments, I have learned the following (as always para-phrased simplistically for easy consumption):
1. It is impolite, or something, to question the tone of a debate on a site like this.
2. In spite of it’s international reach and free access, the tone of this site is well known to all of its users/readers so generalizations can be made with abandon and no caveats should be offered or requested because everybody knows what everybody else really means. Always.
3. ‘Feminism’ is a done deal in the West so the only people who are now allowed to refer to themselves as ‘feminists’ are harridans and harpys.
4. If you are called Steve you will be shamed by comparison with your similaraly named betters.
All of which I can accept. Or not.
Still no explanation, however, of how generalizations made by Thompson disciples are in any way different from those made by leftists who can generalize that all Conservatives are closet racists because some might be, or suggest that all bankers are greedy criminals because some have been found to be or, for that matter, those that ganeralize about ‘Muslims’ when they are actually referring to The Taliban, Al Shabaab or Islam.
It seems such a simple thing.
Splotchy,
My lawyer-lady wife chose to stop working full time when our daughter was born too. She still, however, considers herself to be a feminist of what, I suppose, might be viewed as the old-school. As such, she is as apalled by the antics of the modern feminists as I am. Oddly though (well, I think it’s odd) she has no time at all for Thomas Sowell and refuses to accept any of the points made here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_sGn6PdmIo
She did study politics & economics at the LSE so that might explain it.
3. ‘Feminism’ is a done deal in the West so the only people who are now allowed to refer to themselves as ‘feminists’ are harridans and harpys.
Number 3 sounds about right, Steve. But it’s not about being “allowed” anything. None of the women I work with, none of the women I know, none of my female relatives call themselves feminists. I think there’s a reason for that. Or do you think women in the UK still need something called “feminism” and people called “feminists” to stand a chance of being happy, successful, etc.?
–is to note that the very vehement claim during that election was of Qualified And Commendable Candidate For High Office, One Heartbeat Away, Etc
Of course we then ended up with Joe Biden in that position. Not that this is relevant regarding Palin quitting governorship of Alaska, but bejesus! The man’s a bumbling idiot. He makes Al Gore look like a Harvard graduate. He makes John Kerry look like a Yale man. Relative to Biden, Obama’s some sort of professor of constitutional law. God help us.
Perhaps you have a different label for a father that wants the best for his daughter?
Steve,
argument over labels is a distraction from the argument of ideas. If you still looking for a less charged or chauvinistic label there is egalitarian. Or simply saying I support idea a,b, & c or are opposed to x.y, & z. While many people do associate feminism with anti-intellectual harridans and censorious harpies many also object to the suggestion that anyone who does not label themselves a feminist is opposed to egalitarianism.
If anyone’s having trouble with comments not appearing, email me and I’ll give the spam filter a good hard thrashing.
Anna,
“…Or do you think women in the UK still need something called “feminism” and people called “feminists” to stand a chance of being happy, successful, etc.?…”
I don’t know. Some people like ‘labels’ others don’t, I wouldn’t presume to speak for them. My original point was that attacking all ‘feminists’ as man haters etc. seemed somewhat crude to me and would necessarily include many women that I know. I didn’t expect the Spanish inquisition.
As far as it (feminism) being a done deal, I don’t entirely agree. I can only assume, perhaps wrongly, that my council estate – crap Comprehensive school – 2nd rate poly – low payed profession leading to residence in un-fashionable / poor inner London area life experience means that the people around me are not as sophisticated as some contributors here. It is, however, relatively ‘normal’ and from this relatively ‘normal’ perspective it seems that old-fashioned attitudes have far from disappeared. In addition, some of the recent ‘cultural enrichment’ seems to be exerting a backwards trend.
Earlier I referred to attitudes prevelant on my building sites and that was batted away with a stereotypical assumption that that it’s just builders that behave that way. That is not my experience. Factory workers, call centre workers, even bankers and lawyers, particularly when in large same sex groups, don’t seem vastly different from the ones that I knew growing up (my father was a factory worker, then a bus conductor, then an oil rig worker, then did some plumbing so my main exposure to British male adults when growing up was mostly dominated by the burly working type). I certainly agree that the laws are all in place and things like wage gaps and quotas are more likely to be explained by career choices etc. made by women but I’m not sure that anyone can say the job is entirely done. As is often the case, it seems to me that, the assumptions of the middle and media classes don’t remotely mach the experiences of ordinary people.
On the other hand you may live in Peckham, have no university educated friends and totally disagree. It’s perfectly possible that it is my experiences that are the aberrant ones.
Col. Milquetoast,
“…argument over labels is a distraction from the argument of ideas…”
I agree, although the original point, and it was really my only point, was that when criticizing, quite vehemently by some, a particular group of people, the decent thing might be to accurately identify that group. It was not me who introduced the label ‘feminist’ I merely suggested that it was somewhat imprecise. Apparently that was terrible of me.
Anna,
By way of illustation that the job is not done…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10666129/Muslim-boys-school-bans-women-from-applying-for-job-as-science-teacher.html
That’s multi-culturalism!
Steve,
I certainly agree that the laws are all in place and things like wage gaps and quotas are more likely to be explained by career choices etc. made by women but I’m not sure that anyone can say the job is entirely done.
I’m with Anna and dicentra on this. The expectations I have regarding women’s options in life are normative, institutionalised and enforced by law. In short, here in the developed world (outside of certain, unmentionable immigrant groups which reject those normative values), there doesn’t seem to be much of a mountain left to climb. Unless of course one favours ever more intrusive and authoritarian measures to purge whatever WrongThought™ remains in the minds of men. Sensitivity classes for oafish labourers working on building sites, maybe. Or compulsory gender quotas in every vocational and cultural sphere.
It’s hardly coincidental that so much of modern Western feminism (and identity politics generally) is entranced by “unconscious biases,” “phantom knapsacks of privilege” and a never-ending array of trivial, subjective or intangible concerns. The horror of cupcakes, the gendered barbecue, the feminist politics of toddler excrement. A couple of years ago I was told that a man’s surprised expression – seen once, years in the past – was damning evidence of The Patriarchy and therefore proof that “more must be done.”
Concerns of this kind, as illustrated here time and again, either can’t be policed, shouldn’t be policed, or could only be policed by the most egregious and overbearing measures. And so, as so often, the question is this: How much money, privacy and freedom do we sacrifice – or have taken from us – in order to fix whatever the latest issue, or imagined issue, is? How much is that elusive purity worth?
On the subject of which, this, by Theodore Dalrymple, seems relevant.
David,
My accountant, or rather his young book-keeper, was in here last week. She is a sweet white, fairly pretty girl in, I guess, her late twenties who comes from one of the areas of SE London that is believed to be inhabited almost exclusively by white knuckle-dragging racists. Last year she got married to her child-hood sweetheart.
Last week she seemed noticeably more cheerful than usual. We asked her why. It turned out that she recently left her childhood sweetheart, apparently a well-payed banker of some sort, having discovered that he had a secret second life involving copious amounts of drugs, booze and loose women. Apparently she had been tolerating his behaviour, absences extending to several days, late nights, drunken tantrums etc., under the impression that this behaviour was fairly normal. She, of course, was discouraged from going out, treated with constant suspicion and usually found herself home alone, literally fearful of the consequences of having her own life. As if that was not bad enough, her parents apparently are angry with her for ‘giving up’ on her marriage and still think he is wonderful. We have known her for about 3 years and had no clue that there was anything up until last week.
As far as I know she (my book-keeper) did not experience physical violence; it was all more about psychological domination, and I know her case is likely to be rare but I suspect it is more typical than many of us imagine.
With that in mind, this recently caught my eye http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26340281
“…It says each year at least 1.2 million women and 784,000 men in Wales and England experience domestic violence…”
1.2 million possible reasons to disagree with Anna & Dicentra.
BTW I agree with all the other stuff. Did I not make that clear enough?
Steve,
1.2 million possible reasons to disagree with Anna & Dicentra.
Yes, thugs and morons walk among us, as they always will, and domestic violence still happens, in some places more than others, despite every man I know regarding it as brutish, cowardly and unacceptable. As, I imagine, does everyone here. There are also plenty of louts, philanderers and verminous scumbags. Such is the wonder of the human species.
Presumably you think more must be done beyond the laws and social censures that already exist. But what, exactly? If every man I know finds it appalling, and presumably most of the men known by most of the people here do too, what else would you suggest? What will feminist badge-wearing – by people who generally aren’t in favour of beating women anyway – do to change this?
the feminists seemed fixated on her views on abortion.
She had the temerity to NOT abort a Down Syndrome baby, instead carrying him to term and calling him a blessing. That enraged them more than any other pro-life statement or position she could have taken.
As for the serial lawsuits, they weren’t reported very prominently on this side of the pond, either. I still run into conservatives who think she was a quitter without knowing what drove her decision.
1.2 million possible reasons to disagree with Anna & Dicentra.
Steve, Steve, Steve.
Domestic violence isn’t motivated by misogyny or sexism or any other “-ism” that is or may be identified. It has exactly zero to do with politics or “awareness” or Teh Patriarchy or anything like unto it. Domestic violence occurs because family relationships tap into the core of one’s being and therefore are intense, intimate, personal, and wrenching even at their best. All of the emotional baggage that one may have acquired throughout life becomes manifest; the constant proximity of family means that all the frustrations escalate and often become physical. The desire to dominate is primal; the ability to compromise must be learned.
You can tout feminism all you want, but your understanding of what it can and cannot address strikes me as superficial and naive.
David,
“…Presumably you think more must be done beyond the laws and social censures that already exist…”
No I don’t. Why would you think so? I was merely illustrating that, in spite of what you or anyone else might believe, there remain huge challenges for some women. I’m pretty sure that some violence is due to plain thuggery and equally sure that some comes out of misoginistic attitudes, either way if women want to identify as feminists because it gives them strength, or whatever, I can’t see the harm.
My original point was that attacking all ‘feminists’ as man haters etc. seemed somewhat crude to me and would necessarily include many women that I know.
You’re getting hammered because nobody HAS BEEN attacking all feminists as man-haters. Not even by implication. And yet you keep arguing against an assertion that hasn’t been made.
Over and over and over. You keep going back to the same thing, unable to shift gears, unable to say, “Oh, I guess I misunderstood what you guys were doing,” unable to stop reasserting the false assumption on your part, unable to give it a rest.
David did not post a diatribe condemning the term “feminist” or saying that all feminists are man-haters. AS WITH ALL HIS POSTS he selected a specific instance of pretentious bollocks and tore it to shreds with his rapier wit. The rest of us followed suit. That’s all.
Why did you take such a narrow, specific criticism of a specific instance of stupidity as an indictment against an incredibly broad concept?
I’ll tell you why: your Aspie brain tends to fixate on a particular idea and its trajectory; when faced with the need to let go of it and take another tack, the Aspie brain balks.
There’s nothing wrong with being an Aspie; just recognize that sometimes it gets the best of you. This is one of those times.
Steve,
Why would you think so?
Because it’s the implication of your comments. Your own words:
And again:
So… what job? What job is it that card-carrying feminists have yet to finish?
“…It says each year at least 1.2 million women and 784,000 men in Wales and England experience domestic violence…”
Steve, do you believe everything you read in the BBC? Or everything NICE says*? I wouldn’t do either. You need to be very careful with these figures. Specifically, you need to:
1) look at how the counting is done (see points 2 & 3)
2) watch out for the definitions of domestic violence used in any research. Different definitions give very different figures.
3) read Murray Straus on how keen feminist are to get the ‘right’ figures. (or a PDF here if that link doesn’t work)
4) read different views about how many men are affected by DV, and ask why these figures are rarely mentioned. Often they drop out of the story altogether.
5) See Erin Pizzey (the founder of the first DV shelter) talking about feminism and it’s take on DV.
6) read a bit more about Pizzey’s story. As much as you can. I think it’s worth it. She comes across as an extraordinary person.
7) More along the same lines. From the Graun, I’m happy to say. It’s short but, again, worth your time.
I’m a bit surprised that you’ve just accepted these figures as definitive and used them as a slogan. I mean these are statistics.
There is a huge amount of suppression of evidence and argument going on. A measure of DV that gives different results is the Conflict Tactics Scale. I don’t know if it’s better than the alternatives, but I do note that there has been, for example, a massive edit of the wiki article on CTS, leaving only criticisms of it, and deleting Straus’ answers to them (also I think it falsely claims he never answered them). This is actually quite common on wiki.
Beware the figures. Beware the message.
David,
Oh I get it. Those comments can ONLY mean that I am for legislation as opposed to, for instance women being strong, proud, successful etc. on their own terms and demonstrating to the neanderthals, of which there are still plenty (not actual neanderthals, do I have to explain that too?), that it is possible to advocate for women without being a mental case.
Dicentra,
So expressing an opinion, spending an hour explaining and failing to cave to the first challenge is evidence of aspergers? Thanks Doc, I’ll bear that in mind too.
Henry,
Thanks, I will certainly look into some of your suggestions, though I didn’t mean to give the impression that I was presenting a set of irrefutable statistics. In the form of a slogan. My thinking, shallow and naive though it inevitably was, was that a figure as large as 1.2 M was big enough to have meaning even if it was 50% or 80% hogwash. I will read up on Erin Pizzey, thank you for the recommendation though I am already quite aware that men can also suffer domestic abuse. As an 18 year old I very nearly witnessed my father stab my mother with a kitchen knife when years of taunting by my her finally caused him to snap. For a moment I really thought he would do it and retain some residual shame that I watched from a safe distance and didn’t instinctively throw myself in the way. Somewhat ironically the taunting started when my already fairly self-loathing father was fully emasculated by the guilt of hospitalizing my mother in a drunken rage. Gender aggression is indeed a two way street.