Difficult Questions, Carefully Avoided
In the UK in the last census, it turned out that people who identified as white British were a minority in 23 out of the 33 boroughs in London. Now, if you were born in the 1960s, say, which isn’t that long ago, this means a total transformation of the capital city of the country you’re in. I suggest that some people deprecate that, some people love it, most people have a very mixed view towards it. But to pretend that it isn’t a very significant change to occur in a lifetime is nonsensical…
There has been a presumption in recent years in Europe to assume that, historically, whenever you shake the great Rubik’s cube of humanity, it always comes out looking something like The Hague – that everything ends up in the sort of peaceful, decent, liberal settlement that you happily have in your own country… I suggest that this is a very serious underestimation of, among other things, ideas that people bring with them, how long it takes to lose them, and particularly the struggle that liberal societies, in the true sense of the term, have about what they do regarding the integration of people who may not want to join the other elements of the society…
We wish to have justice for people coming; we should have mercy for people fleeing other places; but we also need to have a sense of justice for people in Europe who pay their taxes, who have been decent citizens, and who need to be asked if there are going to be massive societal changes that will take place. Because we’re not petri dishes, we are countries.
Via the comments, Horace Dunn steers us to this debate between Douglas Murray, quoted above, and Flavia Kleiner. Ms Kleiner is a mass-immigration enthusiast and one of Forbes magazine’s “30 under 30,” a list of entrepreneurs, activists, and people of growing influence. She is, we’re assured, “fighting for your rights and better government.”
Readers who watch the video in full will, I think, note a contrast in disposition and approach. Murray is thoughtful, knowledgeable, and curious. He asks questions, listens, and tests his opponent’s assumptions, exploring what they imply. In contrast, Ms Kleiner seems doctrinaire, presumptuous, and morally glib. When Murray replies to some specific claim or conceit, Ms Kleiner seems uninterested in any possible oversight on her part, as if listening to the other person were some achingly tedious chore. Presumably on grounds that anyone who disagrees must be insufficiently liberal and enlightened, i.e., unwilling to pretend all of the things that she pretends, and therefore unworthy. Even when those whose views diverge from her own are a majority of the electorate.
Readers may also note how readily Ms Kleiner embraces the role of Wronged Woman when her repeated and unprovoked discourtesies are repaid in even the slightest way. “Doing a Laurie,” I believe it’s called.
Update, via the comments:
Nikw211 adds,
The opening lines of Kleiner’s presentation read like a composition written by a precocious 6th grade teacher’s pet.
For instance, this, on the imagined utopia of a demographically transfused Europe:
I want to drink Vinho Verde in Lisbon. I want to go there by night-train wearing a leopard-pattern pyjama in a compartment full of strangers.
A sentiment that, like several others, has a clueless irony of a rather grim sort, given the increasingly hazardous nature of public transport, not least on account of the behaviour of the, shall we say, unassimilated.
Previously and somewhat related.
And of course this. Also featuring Douglas Murray.
It occurs to me that the likes of Ms Kleiner are essentially the aristocrats of Europe, who wish to treat the whole continent as their estate villages, around which they can trapse, visit the peasants (who know their bettets) and demand unthinking gratitude from the plebs.
Genuine aristocrats—or other senior administrators—on estates and in estate villages definitely know their place.
—Such actual aristocrats/administrators remain aware that they are the source of the cash to keep quite sufficiently paying the highly appreciated and valued and welcomed craftsmen of various sorts who keep doing the work that keeps the estate going . . . .
—Such being rather reminiscent of those who claim that they should pay little or no taxes, but who have no skills or interest in providing local and national defense, keeping the roads in good condition, ensuring quality of food, keeping the sewers going, etc. An aristocrat—or anyone conservative—is quite happy to pay enough taxes, ’cause of noting the alternative . . .
It occurs to me that the likes of Ms Kleiner . . . is more frantically lowest middle class— quite being typical hipter/preppy/yuppy/Etc —and wants to think that she’s being seen as what she might refer to as “posh” . . . and isn’t quite certain how any reality of that actually comes to be.
Trying not to think of a leopard-skin pill-box hat.
—Such actual aristocrats/administrators remain aware that they are the source of the cash to keep quite sufficiently paying the highly appreciated and valued and welcomed craftsmen of various sorts who keep doing the work that keeps the estate going
It is the duty of the wealthy man
To provide employment for the artisan.
(couplet by Chesterton, I think, or Belloc or somebody)
Trying not to think of a leopard-skin pill-box hat.
Well you
must tell me baby
how your head feels
under somethin’ like that…
Under your brand new leopard-skin pill-box hat
It occurs to me that the likes of Ms Kleiner . . . is more frantically lowest middle class— quite being typical hipter/preppy/yuppy/Etc —and wants to think that she’s being seen as what she might refer to as “posh” . . . and isn’t quite certain how any reality of that actually comes to be.
Definitely not aristocrat. She is like the random functionary or courtesan from centuries past who knew just the right person to get in on the gig. She is the modern elites’ version of a “social media influencer”. Her job is to say the right things, portray the right attitudes, and demean those who disagree (because her patrons cannot be seen to sink so low). She is paid well because she is part of the marketing budget and the elites have decided they’d rather pay less for lower class salaries and silly externalities like rape gangs can be ignored.
As Sam noted, she is not from the EU. Highlighting the global elitism at play, she comes from Switzerland to make appearances in the UK and EU because the elites (and their underlings) are in agreement in all those places. She gains clout making these appearances, which her patrons hope to convert into political influence in Switzerland.
I think it is entirely possible that Derkzen and Kleiner were not at all prepared for Murray to be so skilled. Derkzen probably intended to make this some kind of 2-minute hate on the rightwingpopulist and any collusion with Kleiner is less due to preparedness than to similar programming – because they are both good, right-thinking people. Why would any of us expect Derkzen to host anything that could make us second guess Kleiner, Merkel, the EU, or the various bureaucracies and NGOs in our own backyards who are shipping in thousands of foreigners every day?
It is too easy to put the lie to her “I want to drink Vinho Verde in Lisbon” speech. If you want to see new people and new things then GO there. Turning Luton into Karachi, Malmo into Mogadishu, and Los Angeles into Guadalajara doesn’t help 99% of people.
Turning Luton into Karachi, Malmo into Mogadishu, and Los Angeles into Guadalajara
When I hear this I immediately wonder if they also plan to turn Karachi into Luton, Mogadishu into Malmo, and Guadalajara into Los Angeles? In which case, what does that achieve? (And if not, why not?)
Turning Luton into Karachi, Malmo into Mogadishu, and Los Angeles into Guadalajara doesn’t help 99% of people.
Nor would the people who want to turn these cities into those shitholes like living in any of those exotic, vibrant (but not very diverse) places. If they actually had to live with the common folk in Karachi, Mogadishu, and Guadalajara, without any of their normal monetary or physical protections they’d be singing a different tune, methinks. So it’s not surprising that it’s usually the people who live separated and above the roiling masses that want this sort of thing in the first place – people like the odious Schama person.
wearing a leopard-pattern pyjama
I once saw a see-through woman’s plastic raincoat on sale in Lincoln and that had a leopard skin pattern on it.
I only mention it in case it was raining on the way to the station.
I once saw a see-through woman’s plastic raincoat on sale in Lincoln
[ Opens file named ‘Paul Carlton’. Types suspected deviant. ]
“It is too easy to put the lie to her “I want to drink Vinho Verde in Lisbon” speech. If you want to see new people and new things then GO there. Turning Luton into Karachi, Malmo into Mogadishu, and Los Angeles into Guadalajara doesn’t help 99% of people.”
And it greatly increases the chance of being forbidden from travelling there in leopard-pattern pyjamas to drink vinho verde.
This, I think, is the crux of her idiocy. You can’t maintain a liberal society if you fill it with vast numbers of people who hold a deeply-ingrained cultural enmity towards it. That was always the late Pim Fortuyn’s rejoinder to his critics: he was the one trying to defend liberalism, while they were putting it under threat by throwing open the doors to every Tom, Dick, and Mohammed.
Why do non-Europeans need to get a look in here to make this all come true?
Tim Worstall hits the nail on the head here. Pretty much everything that Kleiner says is, precisely, question-begging.
Her argument is: This debate is “who get Europe”. People like me should get Europe. Why? Because Europe should be about drinking Vinho Verde and wearing pyjamas on the train. And people like me are in favour of that. So Europe should belong to me. Anyone who disagrees is a rightwingpopulist. So you should want Europe to belong to me rather than rightwingpopulists like Douglas Murray.
Ok, so I’m exaggerating. But only a little. A very little.
Ok, so I’m exaggerating. But only a little. A very little.
The only part you’re missing is when Murray is asked “well, whaddya think of that, you close-minded rightwingpopulist biggot?” And… scene.
I think I am also probably exaggerating because I haven’t watched the video yet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I will rectify that now.
Her argument is:…Anyone who disagrees is a rightwingpopulist.
She’s also disengenuous. She lives in the least open bordered country in Europe; one that isn’t a member of the EU, maintaining it’s own currency, fiscal, monetary, and trade policy. So she’s been sheltered by the decision making of the rightwingpopulists. She is loathe to admit that it’s precisely the policies at play in the EU and which she is advocating for in her own country that are responsible for her perceived inability to ride the train in her leopard-skin pjs.
I’m sorry. All this talk of Vinho Verde in Lisbon has me terribly confused. I recently pick up a bottle in a wine store in Hiawassee, GA (near The Shoppes On Tater Ridge..I kid you not). Was that wrong?
Was that wrong?
Yes, deeply wrong. Did you also buy a bottle of 19 Crimes wine? If so then no forgiveness is possible and a Sensitivity Training Consultant will sentence you to transportation.
Exactly. Kleiner’s multicultural dream seems to be formed by going out for Indonesian, Indian or Somali food while waltzing through her EU sponsored job.
I think she’s confusing Europe with The Epcot Theme Park.
She strikes me as the sort of person I always consider a victim of the Left: her heart’s in the right place with her professed belief in liberalism, broadly defined. And she’s probably a decent, caring person.
I imagine that is how she would like to look, but I think her speech gets to the heart of this type of thinking; namely that she feels she should be able to go wherever she fancies, whenever she likes. A firm belief that the freedoms she enjoys in her home country should be extended to her globally. It’s nothing more than self-interested posturing.
Thankfully a refugee crisis has come along to both disguise such an entitlement mentality, and provide an opportunity to champion open borders as the morally correct thing to do. A kind of metaphorical mutual back-scratching. Of course, in this exchange, it is people like Kleiner whose back is scratched first. Thankfully the migrating masses won’t be anywhere near where they live, so true reciprocation will, sadly, not be forthcoming.
I want to be able to dance again. I want the weeds in the front yard to stop coming back every couple of days. I want to be able to hike again, wearing leopard-print sneakers with camo pants. I want David to fisk Scary Mommy some more. (Fisk, damn it; I said FISK!). I want the neighborhood skunk to find another neighborhood. I want the interest rate lowered on my house payment. I want a cure for autism discovered. I want Covid and its accompanying hysteria to go away. I want great Cthulhu to arouse from his dreamless sleep, so I can stop voting for the LESSER evil.
So which screed do you like better, mine or hers?
I want great Cthulhu to arouse from his dreamless sleep, so I can stop voting for the LESSER evil.
*Chuckles
I want David to fisk Scary Mommy some more.
[ Cough. ]
when I was 6 I wanted a pony.
I grew up.
http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/titanic.html
one of Forbes magazine’s “30 under 30,”
Immediately disqualifies her from being taken seriously.
The days of 18-year-old brigade majors putting down a serious rebellion or 20-year-old undergraduates creating group theory are long behind us. Anyone under 30 is an adolescent and should be treated as such.
fnord has the essence of it.
When will the adults stop allowing such blatant tantrums from the children? I pray it happens before the mass grave phase, but that seems less likely by the month.