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Why do you assume I haven’t watched the video? I did, until the end. It isn’t much different from this…
Not that video. In my first comment, which you replied to, I linked to Morton’s ravings in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ9muqi_Rbw
What is it about “the guy’s opinions – even if deranged and anti-Semitic – have no bearing on this harassment” that you don’t get?
Saying that the Jews are poisoning wells and sacrificing European children, and want to take over the world and enslave everyone; that we went to war with Germany to secure the land rights to Palestine for Israel because America’s military works for Rothschild and to war with N Korea as well, for God knows what diabolical reason he attributes to the Jews – these are not opinions I can overlook as easily as you seem to be able to do.
This is Protocols of Zion level lunacy and a valid reason to look askance at his latest video! Put it together with the staginess of the performance and the Asian sounding “Mexican” woman and my opinion is that it may well be fake. You feel otherwise. Fair enough. However, let’s not downplay the problematic nature of vicious antisemitic propaganda by saying his opinions aren’t relevant.
Have another look at the man with “extraordinary patience”, Nathan Morton, supposedly being picked on by his “Mexican” neighbour for wearing his “Build the Wall” shirt.
Yes, all dismal, boneheaded stuff. And thanks for pointing that out. However, the video, reproduced here, isn’t about him. The people doing the harassing and intimidation make no mention of any past interaction or opinions, or videos, or any unseen provocation – no knowledge of the man at all except his t-shirt. Despite their obvious determination to provoke, and the length of time spent talking and scraping about for ammunition, that’s the only offence mentioned – a shirt bearing the words “build the wall,” i.e., enforce the law regarding illegal immigration. This, apparently, is deemed sufficient grounds to indulge in the behaviour seen above.
I grant you, he’s not an ideal poster child for the point I’m hoping to make, and you can imagine how that discovery chafes. But based on what we see of the exchange and how little the harassers appear to know about their target, beyond his taste in shirts – it seems worth making nonetheless. After all, seizing on innocuous behaviour, even sitting quietly, as a pretext for ‘progressive’ harassment is not unknown.
I grant you, he’s not an ideal poster child for the point I’m hoping to make, and you can imagine how that discovery chafes.
When I first saw the video I was appalled at how he was being treated and impressed with how he responded. I even forwarded it to my brother. Then out of curiosity I looked at several of his other videos. Each one happened to be progressively worse, culminating with RE: Psychotic Hallucination – Lionel – War Machine Rothschild Freemasonic Occult (Catchy title)
My concerns are:
1. The things he says – Jews poison wells and murder European children, etc. – are so insane I feel the need to be cautious about accepting anything he says or does. This includes his making a video depicting himself as a reasonable, long-suffering, extraordinarily mild-mannered guy.
2. Having seen that he was not what his video (the harassment one) portrayed him to be, when I watched it a second time it struck me as fake (in several ways that I’ve already mentioned in previous comments).
So not only are his ravings reprehensible, it seems possible to me that he is trolling us as well.
However, the video, reproduced here, isn’t about him.
It isn’t mainly about him, but he has a large supporting role, and he comes across as the “hero” of the piece. I fully see the point you are trying to make. The ignorance and irrationality of some leftists is very annoying and can even be dangerous. I would never want to contend with you on that. But I also never want to be duped by an internet troll, and particularly not by an apparent neo-Nazi.
With my academic head I actually find the complete lack of self-awareness fascinating.
Scary too.
I grant you, he’s not an ideal poster child for the point I’m hoping to make, and you can imagine how that discovery chafes.
Actually, why?
As has been pointed out rather repeatedly what we . . . We . . . have here is a totally typical, unremarkable, utterly bog standard right wing liberal. What we also have here is a totally typical, unremarkable, utterly bog standard left wing liberal.
And.
Being quite distinct from the assorted videos, between the two sides that are documented as useless, worthless, extremist total shits are the totally and obviously separate rest of us, the conservative, the centered, the balanced, the reasoned. We are not moderate, we are the conservative, we are the center, and puerile yammering of “moderate” is the decrepit posturing of the right wing infirm and the left wing threadbare.
One of the easiest ways to catch the left and right wing liberal failures is any of their claims that if one is not from one extreme, one has to be the from the other extreme, because facing reality means to admit that the actual reality will remain the inevitable acknowledgment of the rest of us in the middle.
So, we have videos that show the right and left wing to be blatantly and openly interchangeable mirrors of each other? Golly. The shock. The horror, the horror. Woe is us. Oh, the humanity. Think of the children.
At the very least, one definite advantage of the era of unending and ubiquitous YouTube is that such unambiguous examples of right wing failure and left wing failure will always remain and remind of the permanently preeminent middle.
it seems possible to me that he is trolling us as well.
Well, possibly, I suppose, though I’m not sure how – the interaction strikes me as genuine, if unhinged. In fact, it strikes me as genuine because it’s unhinged. And again, the participants make no mention of any other grievance or basis for their actions; they don’t seem to know anything at all about the target of their game. If you wanted to belittle and provoke the chap, there’s plenty of other, more pertinent ammunition. But instead, they focus on his shirt, which is apparently sufficient basis for damnation and harassment, and his imagined sex life, or lack thereof, and the fact that he’s using last year’s phone.
Actually, why?
Well, it adds the complication currently ongoing. Though again, the interaction seems to me genuine because it’s so peculiar and disproportionate, so imaginatively spiteful. In some ways, the dynamic reminds me of the archetypal ‘mean girls’ from school. The ones who identify someone with no social back-up and then focus on something trivial that can be construed as a transgression. The wrong shoes, an unfashionable bag. A t-shirt with a message of which they don’t approve.
I grant you, he’s not an ideal poster child for the point I’m hoping to make, and you can imagine how that discovery chafes.
Regardless of how ridiculous or unpleasant his opinions, he has the right to expect not to be harassed. And if he was trolling, more fool them for reacting and showing the sort of people they are.
Though again, the interaction seems to me genuine because it’s so peculiar and disproportionate, so imaginatively spiteful. In some ways, the dynamic reminds me of the archetypal ‘mean girls’ from school.
David. I linked to the video because it seems so believable – it fits the pattern of leftist behaviour we’ve seen before, particularly the case of the girl in the Taxi berating the driver you brought to our attention here.
There is always the possibility that it’s fake, of course, but it just looks like a typical attempt to provoke a reaction and then play the innocent party.
I linked to the video because it seems so believable – it fits the pattern of leftist behaviour we’ve seen before,
Absolutely. The dynamic is eerily similar.
1. The things he says – Jews poison wells and murder European children, etc. – are so insane I feel the need to be cautious about accepting anything he says or does. This includes his making a video depicting himself as a reasonable, long-suffering, extraordinarily mild-mannered guy.
Subscribing to weird, paranoid conspiracy theories and coming across in person as reasonable and mild-mannered aren’t necessarily incompatible. Lots of people who met Hitler pre-WW2 came back gushing about what a great guy he was.
I’d sooner go shirtless in December (in Alaska) than wear a Trump T-shirt. But I can’t help thinking that at least a few points of his election win are owed to people like that pair. Thanks guys…
“Blatant exercise of female privilege. Talking all that shit knowing that she’ll never have to pay a price for it.”
Yes, because she chose a soft target: a middle class white guy. She’d not have gotten in the face of a black guy or an El Salvadorian like that.
The unpleasant woman claims to be “Mexican.” Funny, but she sounds Filipina. That suggests a performance – but maybe I’m wrong.
I thought the same thing.
In wonder if Erika and her henchman deliberately picked on Nathan Morton (knowing his views) when they staged their ambush? Or was he the only poor fool in the room to be harangued for their ‘statement’ video? I’m also wondering what would be Erika’s reaction at being similarly cornered…?
That interview with Dr Jordan Peterson is well worth reading.
“If you want a vision of the future, imagine
a boot stamping on a human facenegative response-inducing provocative internet / media trolling and manufactured outrage in service of political agendas – forever.”However, let’s not downplay the problematic nature of vicious antisemitic propaganda by saying his opinions aren’t relevant.
:::sigh:::
Greg W
If someone torches the Westboro Church, shall we give the arsonist a pass because of the ugly, hate-filled nature of the group?
In this singular instance of a guy the object of harassment, what does his odious, even vicious statements have to do with it? NOTHING.
Bad people can have bad things happen to them. The first doesn’t negate the 2nd.
I have no sympathy for Trump or his wall-building propensities, but this looks a lot like leftist fascism to me. And there’s a lot of it about here in the UK: http://bit.ly/2cvLtsR
:::sigh::: If someone torches the Westboro Church, shall we give the arsonist a pass because of the ugly, hate-filled nature of the group?
This is not a good analogy. Nobody burned anything or threatened violence of any kind here. Nobody is giving an arsonist a pass here.
Suppose instead that the Westboro cultist, Fred Phelps, had once worn a shirt with a slogan such as Turn or Burn on it. He then received 10 minutes of verbal abuse from 2 overly aggressive, irrational people who didn’t know he was the deranged hate-monger but just didn’t like the shirt.
You and I might both agree he had a perfect right to wear the shirt as an expression of free speech. However, once I discovered that the old guy was Fred Phelps my interest in the incident would wane, just as my indignation vanished when I learned that Nathan Morton thinks Jews are well-poisoning murderers of children.
This is not a time for sighing, Darleen, but a time for thinking. If the Jews really did the things Nathan Morton accuses them of – for example, causing the slaughter of millions in 20th century wars alone, merely to make money and establish the nation of Israel, then they would truly be worthy of our hatred! (Of course they didn’t!)
If an ordinary guy is verbally harassed for the words on his shirt then I strongly disapprove. However, I now find him to be a neo-Nazi instead, whose stated beliefs logically entail that Jews should be dealt with severely or even disposed of because they are child-sacrificing monsters. “It’s just natural to them,” says Nathan.
Bad people can have bad things happen to them. The first doesn’t negate the 2nd.
If the only “bad thing” that happens to him is 10 minutes of annoying verbal taunting, staged or real, from a woman, who may or may not be Mexican, that’s not so bad. I can live with it.
This guy was very patient and handled some rerally unprovoked sh*t brilliantly, but he’s also a total antiSemitic nutbar, going on about Jews sacrificing children and Obama being an agent of international Jewish slave masters etc. ad nauseam (check out his youtube channel: https://youtu.be/nZ9muqi_Rbw).
So: this is a case of like calling to like. Put another way, the gravitational constant (G) is increased between two masses if both are assholes, such that they seem to attract each other. To be clear, his harassment is entirely indicative of the unreasoning and contemptible meltdown on the American left over Trump. But he’s a low wattage nut.
To be clear, his harassment is entirely indicative of the unreasoning and contemptible meltdown on the American left over Trump.
This. That’s the point our gracious host was making, backing it up with examples of other unhinged, unprovoked screeds. This wasn’t the first, and won’t be the last. This time it was some nutjob instead of an innocent taxi driver, but the point remains.
I wonder what it is like to be possessed of such overpowering smug sense of self-righteousness that compels one to loudly and repeatedly harass fellow humans. Isn’t this what they are always accusing (or at least fearing they will) Evangelical Christians of doing?
Wow! R Sherman what a great read.
“How do you define social justice warriors?
They’re the ones who weaponize compassion”
“What happens when the discourse itself becomes weaponized?
Errors accumulate, and chaos ensues. … If you interfere with the mechanism by which people formulate problems, solve them, and negotiate their implementation, then problems accrue and multiply.”
jabrwok
that made me think of “Fallen Angels” by Larry Niven (+Pournelle and someone called Michael Flynn), but I don’t think that scene is in it.
Fallen Angels is a “near future” story where maniacal lefties run most of the world governments and abandon objective science in favour of “feels”. It’s over 20 years old but is basically a roadmap that we are part of the way along.
Downside of novel is quite a bit of service to long-term SciFi fans as SciFi convention-goers play a role, but that kind of works. It’s a good plane / holiday rollicking read.
Just to be clear, I think threats from within to our freedoms and our way of life in general are far more likely to come from leftists at this point than from any other group. Anti-Semites and white supremacists are very much marginal figures when compared with left wingers in our culture. It may have been difficult to tell at one time who was more dangerous, Hitler or Stalin. However, today the leftists seem to pose the greater risk while neo-Nazis are isolated, fringe characters; although that doesn’t mean they are harmless.
Anti-Semites and white supremacists are very much marginal figures when compared with left wingers in our culture. It may have been difficult to tell at one time who was more dangerous, Hitler or Stalin.
Weeeellll . . . keeping in mind that Anti-Semites and white supremacists and Hitler and Stalin and everyone else pushing this identity or that are the identity driven left wing . . . .
Over on the right wing is where we see Daesh claiming a caliphate to rule over everyone, where in exactly the same manner we see the Christian evangelicals claiming a god’s kingdom to rule over everyone, where interestingly, there are the assorted Hindutva factions which also have references to assorted faiths, but with their focus on Indian origin identity, they rather look like they’re over on the left wing . . . .
Greg W,
I think you’re right.
Let me advise you strongly not to use dynamically-generated, individually-tailored pages of unknown content this way.
The first five results I get for the first search here are:
Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant
WATCH: ISIS Releases New Video Explaining ‘the Structure of the Caliphate’ – http://heavy.com/news/2016/07/new-isis-islamic-state-daesh-al-furqan-media-amaq-news-pictures-videos-the-structure-of-the-khilafah-full-uncensored-youtube-video-mp4-download/
Isis quietly braces itself for the collapse of the ‘caliphate’ – http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-islamic-state-caliphate-terrorism-daesh-territory-decline-a7134166.html
Daesh: A Misogynist, Racist Caliphate – http://www.huffingtonpost.com/saad-khan/daesh-a-misogynist-racist_b_9072312.html
As ‘caliphate’ shrinks, DAESH looks to global attacks – http://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2016/08/02/as-caliphate-shrinks-daesh-looks-to-global-attacks
and for the second search:
Do evangelical Christian politicians help evangelicals? – http://blog.oup.com/2011/08/evangelical-politicians/
Evangelicals and Politics – http://www.wheaton.edu/ISAE/Defining-Evangelicalism/Politics
Is God a Republican?: Why Politics Is Dangerous for Religion – http://prospect.org/article/god-republican-why-politics-dangerous-religion-0
Evangelicalism – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism
Christianity and politics – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_politics
Let me delicately say that the degree of support of the search results for the thesis varies. I’m also curious what other readers here might get. How much overlap is there between your Google bubble and mine?
The first five results I get for the first search here are:
. . . are a bunch of people claiming that their particular faith is to be the basis of all politics.
and for the second search:
. . . are a bunch of people claiming that their particular faith is to be the basis of all politics.
In short, the right wing.
Your point?
“a shirt bearing the words “build the wall,” i.e., enforce the law regarding illegal immigration. ”
I think ‘build the wall’ means a little more than that. There’s not point pretending to be naive about this sort of thing. Let’s face it, nobody was surprised when the wearer of that slogan turned out to be a nazi, were they?
Isn’t this what they are always accusing (or at least fearing they will) Evangelical Christians of doing?
Yes. The differences being (in my fairly extensive experience discussing religion in person and on the net) that
a) all but the most unhinged (or very immature) Evangelicals will at least be polite about it all and
b) Evangelicals (even the most unhinged and immature) at least have a legitimate and explicit moral imperative, spelled out in their texts, to proselytize: it is (to them) for the good of the victim’s eternal soul. A pain, but it at least has a non-selfish excuse. The authoritarian left can’t even reasonably pretend that this sort of behavior is for the victim’s own good AND
c) to the authoritarian left, moral truth is wholly subjective, not based in an objective text, so this behavioral pattern isn’t even internally consistent. If moral truth is subjective, why isn’t Mr Anti-Semite MAGA here morally justified, and if he is, on what grounds can you harass him? It’s a clusterf*ck of idiocy and intellectual mendacity.
Yet at this very point it becomes quite clear that only an act of liberation, not instruction, can overcome stupidity. Here we must come to terms with the fact that in most cases a genuine internal liberation becomes possible only when external liberation has preceded it. Until then we must abandon all attempts to convince the stupid person.
This would be Bonhoeffer in jail after being caught conspiring to assassinate Hitler?
There’s the motive right there, I guess. He was trying to break the spell by lopping off the snake’s head.
Isn’t this what they are always accusing (or at least fearing they will) Evangelical Christians of doing?
Christians who believe that they ought to found a political entity based on Christianity are way off base.
When Pilate interrogated Jesus to see if he were a political subversive—if he claimed kingship over the Jews—Jesus said in John 16:36 “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
Jesus never aspired to create a political kingdom. The political entity called Christendom, which arose centuries after his death, was not an extension of Jesus’ teachings but rather according to the customs of men.
Spreading the Word and hoping to win converts is not an attempt to cobble together a political entity nor an intent to acquire political power.
Christians who believe that they ought to found a political entity based on Christianity are way off base.
Etc.
See also, substitute any other faith.
My point was that one shouldn’t use dynamically-generated, individually-tailored pages of unknown content as evidence, as two operators will often find themselves seeing very different content at the same URL.
But perhaps my point should instead be that Hal is mendacious.
But perhaps my point should instead be that Hal is mendacious.
Heh!
But that won’t be your point.—One of the reasons I do cite assorted references . . . .
My point was that one shouldn’t use dynamically-generated, individually-tailored pages of unknown content as evidence, as two operators will often find themselves seeing very different content at the same URL.
. . . . . you’re weaseling on that one.
In the specific instance, Daesh and the evangelical Christians will remain as they are, blatantly mirrored twins.
As Di has pointed out, we’re not discussing the genuinely religious here, we’re discussing the inflicters of mere, empty, faith . . .
And as far as references, given two sets of general references at specific time A, in enough time, with enough changes to the language, there could conceivably occur such a shift in meaning and understanding that by time B those two sets of references will have changed.
Leessseeee . . . apparently the great vowel shift took about four hundred fifty years, and even that was just a change in pronunciation rather than meaning . . . . For a much shorter period of time, there was the much faster besmirching of the swastika by the Nazis, but then that keeps disappearing under the layers of countering footnotes and entire citing articles . . .
Very well, here are my assorted references.
The political entity called Christendom, which arose centuries after his death, was not an extension of Jesus’ teachings but rather according to the customs of men.
Christendom was a cultural entity rather than a political one. It was like the medieval equivalent of what we call the Western world.
Let’s face it, nobody was surprised when the wearer of that slogan (‘Build the Wall’) turned out to be a nazi, were they?
I for one was surprised. I assumed he was a normal guy until I decided out of curiosity to look at some of his other YouTube videos.
I’m not an American and I wouldn’t have worn any Trump related garb even if I were. However, I would support any humane, legal measure designed to curtail massive illegal immigration on the level the US is experiencing, including building a fence or wall if that were necessary. Remember, we’re not talking here of measures to keep people from leaving, including killing lots of them as East Germany, N Korea, Cuba and every other ultra-socialist regime has usually done. Any first world country with a border on the third world that takes no steps to prevent millions from migrating there illegally is asking for trouble.
I have no dog in this fight. I also have no prejudice against Latin Americans, or any other ethnic group for that matter. (Of course this is only so far as I am aware, but it’s after considerable self-examination on the matter.) However, Latin America’s serious problems will not be solved by exporting millions of people to the USA. Latin American nations already exist, and most of them are places many of their citizens want to escape from. Efforts should be directed by the Mexicans, for example, at reforming that somewhat corrupt, poverty stricken nation; not at turning large parts of the US into another Mexico.
And having seen the results in Cuba and Venezuela maybe socialist revolution isn’t the answer either.
It might be a case of “patience” in the sense of Napoleon’s dictum that one should “never interrupt your enemy while he’s making a mistake”. If it’s on video, give them time to expose their rotten selves to the whole world in the greatest possible detail.